Eternal punishment

[Joeman]

1.God did not create man imperfect, he created man in his own image – perfect and without sin.

A "perfect" man means this man cannot get any better. If there is room for improvement, this man is not perfect. Adam and Eve were without the "knowledge of good and evil". How can they be perfect? If a perfect man lacks the ability to make perfect decision, then this man is not perfect.

2.man fell into sin by rebelling against god i.e. choosing to be apart from God (sin in latin means without)

Man did NOT rebel against God. Since Adam and Eve are without the knowledge of good and evil, how do they know if rebeling is good or bad? Eve was a in blank state of gullibility fell for the stratagem of Satan, the slickest used car salesman in the universe, with full knowledge and permission from God, how is that a rebellion?

3.the punishment (being apart from God) is mans own doing, it will be eternal only until we change our minds and decide to be with God again.

Revelation is a two way street. There is absolutely no reason for us to change our mind without the Damascus road experience.

4.It is within your full control to be with God or not. We make choices every day one way or the other.

How do you determine which God? Since God's existence cannot be proven? How do you determine which God is real and which God is not?

5.Although, we have been in this mess for so long now that it is not as simple as one day saying I choose to be with God and then it will happen the next hour. We have a huge amount of sin (bad karma) to pay for before we can get back to god (become enlightened).

Why would I want be with a God who creates vocanos and tsunami to kill innocent people with?

 

[Marlin]

For most people who go into that state of mind called "hell," there is an end to it after they repent. There is not infinite punishment for finite sin. "Endless punishment" is "God's punishment," because God's name is Endless. Through the Atonement of Christ, all who repent and obey the commandments may be saved. Only the devil and his angels are damned to hell forever, along with those who join him in mortality. For everyone else, there is hope.

Repentance and obedience to the commandments are the keys to forgiveness. Endless punishment will have an end for those who repent.

And if we repent and obey God's commandments in *this* life, we won't have to go through hell at all. Jesus suffered for our sins so we don't have to suffer, if we will repent and obey Him.

 

[JohnGalt]

Original Sin! Don't you understand! That is what makes religion go round-without being told that we are inherently sinful and dastardly, imperfect, evil creatures, we would have a better longing to be perfect, a better ability to do so, and we wouldn't need the religion.

Original Sin is built around the fact that you must make something man needs to survive sinful. IF you do that, everyone is sinful-until they realize that a code that contradicts the reality of, well, reality cannot be right. If a code tells us it is sinful to have sex-but we must do it in order for man to survive-then it is the code that is wrong, not the man. Christian original sin is built on similar premises-Man needs his pride and assurance in what he does-so they call it sinful. Man needs to help himself in order to survive-so they claim it is "right" to help others.

Ohh well. There's no getting around it. You are either A)Christian and accept this fact, and thus run up to be saved. Or B)your realize that it is the wrong code and realize that then the whole basis upon which it is founded-God and Jesus-is wrong, you live perfectly by your own standards, while they believe you will burn in hell for it. This cannot be changed. You can argue original sin as long as you want, but the people who believe it won't change, and the people who know it is wrong won't change. IF you desire to argue it, argue it with someone that is reasonable(although Christian) and can be persuaded, or someone that isn't sure.

 

[Marlin]

The doctrine of "Original Sin" (that man is punished for Adam's transgression) is false. Man is punished for his own sins, not for Adam's transgression.

 

[scorpius]

Some scientific reasons for the existence of God:

The laws of probability will tell you that this universe with all of its ordered complexity, could not have come into being by chance.

maybe it always existed

To have that much order and complexity, the universe had to be designed by an intelligent creator.

and WHO designed created that Designer?

There is enough coded information in one human chromosome to
fill a small library of books. This had to be designed by an
intelligent creator.

or maybe its just nature.
btw did this inteligent morron also made
CANCER,AIDS,TORNADOES,VOLCANIC ERUPTIONS,TSUNAMI EARTHQUAKES and ALL those DEADLY to humans DISEASES ?

The probability against that happening by chance is very
very high. It's like giving a chimpanzee a typewriter and letting him hit the keys at
random.

totaly idiotic comparison,but hey, cretinists were never known for logic!

The probability against his being able to type a small library full of books by hitting keys at random is so high that for all
practical purposes you can consider it impossible.

and yet here is the universe and all,so it aint imposible at all is it??
..
the rest of your post is a typical cretinists appologetics nonsense not realy worth replying

 

[ghost7584]

Satan is actually God's buddy. If God is all powerful and really hate Satan, God can get rid of Satan at any time. Instead, God let Satan to hang around. That means God is using Satan is accomplish his agenda and is responsible for everything Satan did do. Also notice that Satan has actually gotten a lot bigger since he was defeated. Before he was an angel, now he is omnipresent and almost all powerful and take on the characteristic of God.

God gave the angels free will and a large number of them rebelled against Him. To prevent anymore rebellion among angels in heaven, it is men that are chosen and proven faithful that are going to be allowed in heaven to be angels. So men must be tested on the Earth to see which of them is faithful and willing to obey God. God is allowing Satan to do the testing to try men and see who is worthy to be an angel and who is not worthy.
God deals in justice. God used Satan to test Job, and when Job proved to be true and faithful, God gave him twice as much as he lost in Satan's test.
Also, Satan is allowed to do much of his evil against men because those men are sinners and they deserve punishment. So God will allow Satan who is totally evil to punish them for their sins. God is handling everything justly. But the test will go on until Jesus comes back, and some more testing a thousand years later at the end of the millenial reign of Christ.
God is not asking you to do anything that He was not willing to do Himself. God became a man, in the form of Jesus the Messiah, and He lived without sin. When God expects you to not sin, He is asking you to try to do something that He did Himself. God suffered physical death, in the form of Jesus the Messiah. If God is asking you to suffer physical death, He is not asking you to do what He was not willing to do. God was willing to die, as an atonement for sin, so that others may be forgiven and go to heaven.
God is handling the testing of men justly.

[As things are now, it looks to me like you are failing your test. You get an F on this test, and believe me, you won't like the results of that forever.]

Matthew 13;
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


explanation of the parable:

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Raithere]

We are born as an imperfect being, we are made by GOD (assuming creationism is true), He made us to be imperfect, therefore, why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.

You're talking about a god that demands a blood sacrifice before he'll forgive you for breaking his rules.

Eternal torture fits in nicely with this ethic.

~Raithere

 

[Clockwood]

If there is a creator, I am sure that it would be so vast and alien to us that it wouldn't be able to understand things like pain or fear. It would be incapable of showing kindness while appearing quite sadistic at times.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

M*W: Paraphrased -- "God gave the angels [stars] free will [they are uncontrollable by humankind] and a large number of them rebelled [falling stars] against Him [the Sun] [shooting stars/meteor showers]. To prevent anymore rebellion among angels [shooting stars/meteor showers] in heaven [the night sky, darkness], it is men that are chosen and proven faithful that are going to be allowed in heaven [somewhere up in the sky] to be angels [stars]. So men must be tested [daily life] on the Earth to see which of them is faithful and willing to obey God [the Sun]. God [the Sun] is allowing Satan [Lucifer or "light bringer"] to do the testing [daily life] to try men and see who is worthy to be an angel [star] and who is not worthy [anyone who lives in the darkness of night won't be a star in the sky]."

"God [the Sun] deals in justice [the Sun is not biased. The Sun radiates the whole world fairly and equally]. God [the Sun] used Satan [Lucifer, the light bringer] to test Job [giving him a life with obstacles like we all have being mere mortals], and when Job proved to be true and faithful, God [the Sun] gave him twice as much as he lost in Satan's [Lucifer, the light bringer's] test [of daily life]."

"Also, Satan [Lucifer, the light bringer] is allowed to do much of his evil [darkness of night when the Sun is down] against men because those men are sinners [anyone who likes or lives by the darkness of night], and they deserve punishment [to early humans, the darkness was punishment to them and their crops]. So God [the Sun] will allow Satan [Lucifer, the light-bringer, who was a major star, planet, moon or constellation] who is totally evil [lives in darkness of night] to punish them for their sins [of being awake at night]. God [the Sun] is handling everything justly [the sun rises and sets each day without fail]. But the test [daily living] will go on until Jesus [the Sun of the Sun] comes back, [tomorrow morning] and some more testing a thousand years later [daily living for 1000 more years] at the end of the millenial reign of Christ [the Age of Pisces, the fish, as Jesus was supposed to be a fisher of men -- Pisces]."

"God [the Sun] is not asking you [the Sun cannot speak, but this is who Abraham and Moses talked to] to do anything that He was not willing to do Himself [the Sun cannot do as humans, and humans cannot do the things the Sun does]. God [the Sun] became a man [only in primative thought], in the form of Jesus [the Sun of God] the Messiah [the Sun is the Savior of the World, without the Sun we would all die], and He lived without sin [in the darkness of night when crops cannot be planted]. When God [the Sun] expects you to not sin [traipse around at night], He [the Sun] is asking you [again, no proof that the Sun can talk] to try to do something that He did Himself [work in the daytime]. God [the Sun] suffered physical death [the Sun set in the evening and 'died' for the day], in the form of Jesus the Messiah [the Son of the Sun of God, the Savior of the world]. If God [the Sun] is asking you to suffer physical death [as in set in the evening when everyone else is asleep], He [the Sun] is not asking you [again, no proof that the Sun can talk; the Sun doesn't ask mankind to die each night and be resurrected in the morning] to do what He [the Sun] was not willing to do [plant crops]. God [the Sun] was willing to die [sun set in the evening], as an atonement for sin [humankind was being punished by the setting of the Sun], so that others may be forgiven and go to heaven [with the stars, planets, moons and constellations]."

"God [the Sun] is handling the testing [daily life] of men justly [as in a regular cyclic zodiacal movement]."

"As things are now, it looks to me [not God, and not the Sun] you [not God, and not the Sun] are failing [have a less than average] your test [daily life]. You get an F on this test [daily life], and believe me [not God, and not the Sun], you won't like the results of that forever.]"

Matthew 13;
27 So the servants [position of the planets] of the householder [houses in the zodiac] came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field [zodiac]? from whence then hath it tares? [weeds or poor crops]
28 He said unto them, An enemy [darkness of night] hath done this. The servants [positions of the planets] said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? [autumnal equinox, a time for harvesting]
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares [weeds], ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest [autumnal equinox]: and in the time of harvest [autumnal equinox] I will say to the reapers [the stars], Gather ye together first the tares [weeds, poor crops], and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn [house of the zodiac].
*************
ghost7584: explanation of the parable:

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil [Lucifer, the light bringer of the night]; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares [weeds, bad crops] are gathered and burned in the fire [Sun=Hell]; so shall it be in the end of this world [the end of the world is in the skies].
41 The Son of man [Sun] shall send forth his angels [stars], and they shall gather out of his kingdom [zodiac in the sky] all things that offend [as in darkness], and them which do iniquity [carousing around at night];
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire [the blazing hot sun of the summer equinox]: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth [by damn, it's gonna be hot up there].
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun [the Sun of God] in the kingdom of their Father [God the Sun]. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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M*W: As I've said before, the Bible contains myths about ancient astrological patterns. There is no God, only the Sun.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Clockwood: If there is a creator, I am sure that it would be so vast and alien to us that it wouldn't be able to understand things like pain or fear. It would be incapable of showing kindness while appearing quite sadistic at times.
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M*W: The only creator the Earth has is the Sun.

 

[Yazdajerd]

Originally posted by Saint
"why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control."

Don't worry, you want be judged for what you did not have full control of. I garentee that.
But are you sure that all your wrong doings aren't by you control???

 

[Yazdajerd]

Originally posted by Saint
"Christianity originated from judaism, basically they worship the same God, but why do they diverge? A good reason is the God is False God."

Hey, if we assume the bible story to be true, you can't blaim the christians if the jews at some point decide: The "Messiah" we were promissed before doesn't suit us, lets just claim he is false and get rid of him.

Nor can you say that God is false because people do not abide to his laws..... for example if most people commit adultry or drink wine it doesn't mean that God allowed it, assuming he exists!!

 

[Yorda]

M*W: The only creator the Earth has is the Sun.

but people don't want to know what "created" the earth, they want to know what created the existence of everything. religions usually refer to consciousness when they talk about "light", or something similar at least. "i am the consciousness of the world".

you know... maybe you shouldn't be so sure about everything you read. what do you mean by "sun of god"? if sun is the god, then it cannot have a god. the concept "sun of god" doesn't make sense. there's much symbolism in the bible, which we no longer understand. we use symbolism today also, and in the future, we will no longer understand it, unless we try to decipher it. astrology originated from egypt... i think it's truth.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

M*W: "The only creator the Earth has is the Sun."
*************
Yorda: but people don't want to know what "created" the earth, they want to know what created the existence of everything.
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M*W: The Sun created everything. Were there no Sun to warm the Earth, melt the icecaps, warm the climate of the oceans so sea creatures could walk on land, ergo humans to help them grow vegetation for their sustenance... blah, blah, blah... The Sun created everything.
*************
Yorda: religions usually refer to consciousness when they talk about "light", or something similar at least. "i am the consciousness of the world".
*************
M*W: Referring to "consciousness" came much later than when ancient humans roamed the Earth. They feared and awed the Sun which had the power of life and death. They feared and awed the stars in the skies and created oral legends that became myths when the first recording of oral traditions evolved. Today, we may perceive that "light" means "consciousness," but to our ancient human ancestors, the Sun meant life or death. When the Sun had risen, it created all life, and that was good. When the Sun set, the light died, and that was not good. The light of the Sun meant life, and the darkness of the Moon meant death.
*************
Yorda: you know... maybe you shouldn't be so sure about everything you read.
*************
M*W: Yorda, Yorda, Yorda! I am not so gullible to believe "everything I read!" Actually, far from that. When I find an idea that seems right to me, I research it further until I am convinced without a doubt that the idea is probable. I could write so much more about the things I don't believe in than the things I do. However, in the Religion Forum, my focus is on what I disbelieve about religion.
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Yorda: what do you mean by "sun of god"? if sun is the god, then it cannot have a god. the concept "sun of god" doesn't make sense.
*************
M*W: The term "sun of god" is misleading. The ancients believed Sol, the sun, was the good creator god, and the moon was the evil god of darkness (associated with the goddess of ancient matriarchal societies) who killed the male creator Sun, and called them evil, and the ancient Sun worshippers (also called the patriarchs of the Bible) eventually came to suppress and destroy the matriarchal societies by calling them evil, demon possessed, a threat to mankind who accused them of having powerful sexual attributes that would seduce and destroy mankind (i.e. the Patriarchy). Because the goddess culture had sexual powers over men who couldn't resist, women were doomed as evil, ergo Eve was accused for the fall of "man."

Another allegory to this ancient belief is that the Patriarchy believed the male to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present, and were symbolized by the erect penis which was pointing upward. The symbol of the erect penis also portrayed in ancient architecture in the Greco-Roman Era as columnar phallic symbols. The main fear the Patriarchy had was their own destruction by the goddess culture who intentionally, and with malice of forethought, caused their stiff, erect, throbbing penis to ejaculate and go limp, facing downward toward the Patriarchally created hell, fire and brimstone. Woman had the power to overcome man and make him weak and unable to conquer the Earth. Destroying any evidence of matriarchal societies was the main game plan of the Patriarchy. Fortunately, it is now the Patriarchy who's going down and taking their false religions with them!
*************
Yorda: there's much symbolism in the bible, which we no longer understand. we use symbolism today also, and in the future, we will no longer understand it, unless we try to decipher it. astrology originated from egypt... i think it's truth.
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M*W: True. The bible is all symbolism and allegory. I believe it to be one of, if not the first, astrological calendars. The characters in the bible are stars, planets, constellations, etc., with the Sun being the great creator God whose name has changed over the Ages. The only way to understand the bible as any shape or form of truth is to compare its symbolism to astrological signs and wonders.

A lengthy reference is found at:

http://www.mazzaroth.com/

 

[Lawdog]

No one is doomed to eternal suffering. Only the person who chooses to deny the Truth written in their hearts desires, in consequence, eternal suffering. No one is fated thus.

Through the process of imitating the divine and perfect life of Christ we humans are slowly transformed into perfection, by suffering, like He did.

God also accepts into his kingdom those who are imperfect, who in their life, because of their brokeness, were unable to become perfect. When these souls pass into the next world they must endure the fires of purgatory, in which there is no equall pain on earth, nor any equal joy of coming bliss. This includes a huge portion of souls.

This is a reasonable doctrine. Theology and Tradition and Scripture teach that God is perfect being. Therefore his mercy is perfect and he would not consign anyone to the outer darkness unless they hated Him and demonstrated it by a lifetime of sinning.

 

[Lawdog]

It is correct not to use the word "Eternal" when describing the unending flames of Hell. However, those who choose to go there by demonstrating to God a lifetime of sinning will never be allowed out.

Eternity is proper to God alone.

Purgatory is a place for those souls who did not acheive perfection in this life. Spiritual perfection is not the same as good grades or proper attire or manners.

Those in purgatory suffer greater pains than any on this earth. They also have the greatest joy possible in the knowledge that they will soon enter into the Beatific Vision

So do not despair if you are not perfect. God's mercy is incomprehensible.

 

[okinrus]

We are born as an imperfect being,
we are made by GOD (assuming creationism is true), He made us to be imperfect, therefore,

We're made perfect, but with the choice to become imperfect.

why am I doomed in eternal hell for my wrong doings that are beyond my full control.

The thing is that at often at one point we did have control. For instance, now, a drug addict might not have control over his addiction, but before, when he first tried the drug, he could have chosen not to. So too, just because he doesn't have control over his habbit now doesn't mean latter he's not going to have control.

 

[Yorda]

M*W: They feared and awed the Sun which had the power of life and death.
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Yorda: The things about sun being the creator, the moon being the destroyer of sun... that was the way people explained and understood the world at that time. Primitive people created stories about gods, who cast thunderbolts, instead of saying that lightning comes from the union of positive and negative forces.

But the "ancient" people knew that there were no "gods". They teached the primitive humans about the nature of reality, but usually, the people distorted their teachings over time. The ancient people also had to teach these primitive humans in a special way. Moses, who was a sort of reincarnation of that ancient race, said that god sent him, god wrote the commandments, because this was the way people understood it. Of course, he knew that he... his "higher self" did all those things through him.

Why would people create "stories" about people like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Quetzacoatl... there must be truth in them. Why are there stories about giants? There must be truth in those stories, in astrology... even though some things sound really weird, they have just been distorted over times, and the truth is still hidden there.

The countless stories about gods are not pure fantasy. Even thought they seem to be, when you look at them from the outside. Most of them are true, in one way or another, when we compare them to what we know today.
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M*W: Eve was accused for the fall of "man."
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Yorda: According to the Bible, the snake (the personal, egoistic 'voice' in our mind) was the reason for it. I think Adam and Eve also symbolize positive and negative, and these two are always equal.

The snake is consciousness. Consciousness separated us from the TRUTH ("God"). Before the "fall of man", we were like animals, rather unconscious. By believing in our persons, we separate ourselves from other things, and we do many egoistic and evil things because of that. That's why religions say that we should forget our persons and do good to others, so that we would become like "god" again. Unconscious, omnipresent, all-knowing, all powerful etc.

We know that creation begins with the negative pole being expelled from this unity and the two poles consequently drawing apart and becoming opposed to each other as force and resistance.

So... maybe this is why the "woman" was supposed to be the reason for the fall of mankind. However, even if the woman is physically a negative manifestation, she has, of course, nothing to do with that.

But again, the truth was told to the primitive people, in symbolic stories like the garden of eden, so that they would understand them easier.

 

[scorpius]

M*W: The only creator the Earth has is the Sun.

but people don't want to know what "created" the earth, they want to know what created the existence of everything. religions usually refer to consciousness when they talk about "light", or something similar at least. "i am the consciousness of the world".

unfortunately religions have NO answer other than the FANTASY they invented to explain things.

and science tells us that matter cannot be created or destroyed only changed,
and you cant create something from nothing,
so the universe probably always existed in some form/shape..its eternal

 

[scorpius]

God gave the angels free will and a large number of them rebelled against Him.

talk about a silly story,full of contradictions
God is supposedly ALL KNOWING,so he KNEW what everyone will do!
which means NO free will.

So men must be tested on the Earth to see which of them is faithful and willing to obey God.

IF God asked you to KILL your OWN child,...would you do it?

God is allowing Satan to do the testing to try men and see who is worthy to be an angel and who is not worthy.

so God is RESPONSIBLE for everything Satan does then?
and since Satan does evil .....God is responsible for evil..

God was willing to die, as an atonement for sin, so that others may be forgiven and go to heaven.

what a load of horseshyt.
so basicaly the story says:
God had to sacrifice himself to himself to change the rule he made himself,in the first place..

I guess the word LOGIC doesnt exist in your vocabulary

[As things are now, it looks to me like you are failing your test. You get an F on this test, and believe me, you won't like the results of that forever.]

spare us with the threat of the imaginary eternal hell nonsense,it doesnt exist.
you live you die..and thats it
no afterlife or souls
www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html