Epicurean Paradox.

[lightgigantic]

Very easily lg, although it seems god just wasn't smart enough to figure it out.

There are some people right now that choose only to do good, to worship gods and to do all the things that please these beings. These people are using their free will.

There are some other people right now that choose to do bad, to ignore gods and to do whatever displeases these beings. These people are using their free will.


Solution: Just create the former people. You can't argue that they don't have free will, we've already established that they do - they used it to do good.

Don't create the latter people and you have a planet full of people with free will that choose to do good.

Problem solved. Free will exists, nobody does bad.

so in other words don't create people with free will

:scratchin:

 

[SnakeLord]

so in other words don't create people with free will

What? The only way that stands is if you argue that free will itself is non existent.

You have free will, you chose it to do nothing but good. If only you were created your free will still exists. If you say no, you're going to end up with a serious dilemma. Take some time to think about it.

 

[lightgigantic]

What? The only way that stands is if you argue that free will itself is non existent.

actually that is the basis of your argument

You have free will, you chose it to do nothing but good.

so run it by me again how you propose that god only create people who perform good
:scratchin:

If only you were created your free will still exists. If you say no, you're going to end up with a serious dilemma. Take some time to think about it.

ok to cut to the chase, how could a person who is created to only perform good actually be termed "good" - IOW how does one define issues of morality (good/bad) without having recourse to free will?
needless to say, many philosophers have taken time to think about this issue already ....

 

[SnakeLord]

so run it by me again how you propose that god only create people who perform good

Ok, you're struggling.

1) You have free will.. Yes or no?

2) If you happened to be the only person in existence would you still have that free will? Yes or no?

3) If you chose to do only good, have you used your free will? Yes or no?

4) If you take question 2 and add a few more billion people and then combine that with 1 and 3 you have a world populated by people with free will that all chose to do good.

Simple really, I don't see why you're struggling.

ok to cut to the chase, how could a person who is created to only perform good actually be termed "good"

They can't, now I see where the problem lies.

You weren't created only to perform good, but you choose to using your free will. Therefore you're good and have free will.

 

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord
“

so run it by me again how you propose that god only create people who perform good
”
Ok, you're struggling.

1) You have free will.. Yes or no?

yes

2) If you happened to be the only person in existence would you still have that free will? Yes or no?

yes

3) If you chose to do only good, have you used your free will? Yes or no?

yes, but because I have free will, I could choose not to sometime in the future

4) If you take question 2 and add a few more billion people and then combine that with 1 and 3 you have a world populated by people with free will that all chose to do good.

and if you examine 3 you will see that they could also choose to not do good in the future -provided of course that they actually had free will in the first place

Simple really, I don't see why you're struggling.

I don't see why you are using the word "free-will" when you are obviously indicating something else

“
ok to cut to the chase, how could a person who is created to only perform good actually be termed "good"
”
They can't, now I see where the problem lies.

You weren't created only to perform good, but you choose to using your free will. Therefore you're good and have free will.

yes
goodness (or badness) is contingent on free will

 

[SnakeLord]

yes, but because I have free will, I could choose not to sometime in the future

Most certainly.

and if you examine 3 you will see that they could also choose to not do good in the future -provided of course that they actually had free will in the first place

Most certainly.

I don't see why you are using the word "free-will" when you are obviously indicating something else

It's unclear where such a conclusion comes from. Nowhere was it stated or implied that these people could not choose to do bad, simply that they chose not to.

 

[lightgigantic]

Most certainly.



Most certainly.



It's unclear where such a conclusion comes from. Nowhere was it stated or implied that these people could not choose to do bad, simply that they chose not to.

then its not clear why you are arguing that the simple solution is to only create people who perform good acts

There are some people right now that choose only to do good, to worship gods and to do all the things that please these beings. These people are using their free will.

There are some other people right now that choose to do bad, to ignore gods and to do whatever displeases these beings. These people are using their free will.


Solution: Just create the former people. You can't argue that they don't have free will, we've already established that they do - they used it to do good.

:wtf: :shrug:

 

[SnakeLord]

then its not clear why you are arguing that the simple solution is to only create people who perform good acts

It should be.. Obviously I have lost you.. Let me try this another way..

I chose to go to the pub, (pub A) tonight using my free will. There were 100 people there that also chose to go to the same pub using their free will.

The pub down the road, (pub B) also had 100 people that used their free will to choose to go to that pub.

With me so far? Do you at this point concur that all 201 people used their free will?

If earlier this afternoon the 100 people that chose to go to pub B were all eliminated in some freak accident all you would be left with are 101 people that used their free will to go to pub A.

Do you at this point concur that all you have right now are 101 people that used their free will to go to pub A?

In saying: Free will still stands perfectly untouched. All the pub A occupants used their free will - none of them chose to go to pub B. That does not mean they couldn't choose to go to pub B, simply that they don't.

It's really should be quite simple to grasp, indeed I am under the distinct impression that you do understand it, you're simply stalling.

As a final attempt, I drew this just for you:

 

[lightgigantic]

It should be.. Obviously I have lost you.. Let me try this another way..

I chose to go to the pub, (pub A) tonight using my free will. There were 100 people there that also chose to go to the same pub using their free will.

The pub down the road, (pub B) also had 100 people that used their free will to choose to go to that pub.

With me so far? Do you at this point concur that all 201 people used their free will?

If earlier this afternoon the 100 people that chose to go to pub B were all eliminated in some freak accident all you would be left with are 101 people that used their free will to go to pub A.

Do you at this point concur that all you have right now are 101 people that used their free will to go to pub A?

In saying: Free will still stands perfectly untouched. All the pub A occupants used their free will - none of them chose to go to pub B. That does not mean they couldn't choose to go to pub B, simply that they don't.

It's really should be quite simple to grasp, indeed I am under the distinct impression that you do understand it, you're simply stalling.

and what do you propose happens when person A uses their free will to act like person B?

 

[SnakeLord]

and what do you propose happens when person A uses their free will to act like person B?

There's the point, simply create people that never choose to. You're left with a wonderful perfect world full of free will.

 

[lightgigantic]

There's the point, simply create people that never choose to. You're left with a wonderful perfect world full of free will.

the problem is that person A isn't created like that - provided of course they are created with free will

 

[Revolvr]

This is not a paradox. The author is making assumptions limiting the possible outcomes by assuming God is either impotent or wicked because evil exists. But that is a simplistic view.

There is a war between Satan and God. Satan has rebelled against God and taken many angels with him. Satan wants control of the Earth by having everyone follow him. But Satan doesn’t force people to follow him; he wins followers through deceit, greed, hate, pride, discouragement, power and other tools of his trade. God does not force either, winning followers through love and grace.

The key takeaway here is that this battle between good and evil is not a battle of power. It is a battle of ideas. Yes, God could simply strike down Satan and destroy evil. That does not happen because this is a war of ideas. Striking down Satan would only prove God has the power. It would not prove God is right. Herein lies the importance of free will. Choose your path. One road leads to death; the other, life.

The war between good and evil does have an end though. Eventually Satan, failing to convert all on Earth to follow him, becomes desperate and will use power instead of ideas to kill all those who oppose him. This will be the time of sorrows. That is crossing a line God will not allow. At Armageddon, God does step in and destroy evil.

 

[SnakeLord]

the problem is that person A isn't created like that - provided of course they are created with free will

Clearly not given the theist claimed state of the world, but there's no reason it can't be with free will still perfectly intact as explained above.

 

[lightgigantic]

Clearly not given the theist claimed state of the world, but there's no reason it can't be with free will still perfectly intact as explained above.

the theist claimed state is that everyone is created with free will - as opposed to your suggestion that some people are created with the free will to only perform bad things while other people are created with the free will to perform good things (which is just another way of saying people are created with no free will)

 

[SnakeLord]

the theist claimed state is that everyone is created with free will - as opposed to your suggestion that some people are created with the free will to only perform bad things while other people are created with the free will to perform good things (which is just another way of saying people are created with no free will)

I can't believe you still don't understand it. Hmm..

So you're pregnant. You know your child is going to be a mass murderer. You abort. You're pregnant again.. You know your child is going to win the nobel peace prize.. You continue with your pregnancy. You didn't make your children choose their paths, you simply didn't give birth to one that was going to choose to go down a nasty path. Free will is still perfectly intact, there's no mass murderer.

Does that help?

 

[Enmos]

issues of good and bad are only issues to us humans. In god's mind, there is no good or bad to a situation, there only is the situation itself.

God does what he does and we all try to make sense of it in our own words.

That's the same thing as "he neither wants nor can".. :shrug:

 

[lightgigantic]

I can't believe you still don't understand it. Hmm..

So you're pregnant. You know your child is going to be a mass murderer. You abort. You're pregnant again.. You know your child is going to win the nobel peace prize.. You continue with your pregnancy. You didn't make your children choose their paths, you simply didn't give birth to one that was going to choose to go down a nasty path. Free will is still perfectly intact, there's no mass murderer.

Does that help?

how can a person be created with free will along with a predisposition that determines how that free will can and cannot be utilized?

 

[SnakeLord]

how can a person be created with free will along with a predisposition that determines how that free will can and cannot be utilized?

Are you arguing that god does not know every single decision we shall ever make? Does that in any way hinder the 'choices' we make? If I 'choose' to do only good and god is aware of that prior to my existence do I therefore have no free will? I can utilize my free will in any way I choose, I simply choose to only do good. I will never ever ever choose to do anything bad, god already knows this and always has. Is that predisposed or simply knowledge of what I will do?

How is free will any less if you create 6 billion people like me that choose to only do good? Unless of course you use a relatively common atheist argument that knowledge of choice negates free will or unless you espouse that there is something unfair about the non existent not being given a choice, bugeye?

Once more for hopefully the last time: Knowing that this person will only choose to do good does not hinder his free will, it does not suggest that one "cannot utilise" that free will, it is simply prior knowledge that they wont, not that they can't. Simply leaving those that choose to do bad out of existence leaves an entire world populated by those that choose to only do good.. those who still have their free will completely intact.

Think of heaven.. It will be full of people that only choose to do good, (apparently). Is their free will negated?

 

[Revolvr]

how can a person be created with free will along with a predisposition that determines how that free will can and cannot be utilized?

Snakelord has created "A Clockwork Orange" scenario.

Snakelord, in case you are too young to see the movie, a guy Alex who always chooses evil is eventually caught by the police. They choose to "cure" him of his evil ways by brainwashing him: forcing him to watch violent movies clamping his eyes open and giving him drugs that make him feel horrible - thus programming him to get violently ill any time he chooses to do violence.

Unfortunately the movies always played Beethoven in the background so he also becomes violently ill anytime he hears Beethoven.

Your case, of creating people with free will but will only choose "good" is a case equivalent to brainwashing. What meaning does free will have if one can choose only one path?

Again, the battle between good and evil is a battle of ideas and opinion, not a battle of power. Your scenario gives no value or purpose to free will.

 

[lightgigantic]

Are you arguing that god does not know every single decision we shall ever make?

No

Does that in any way hinder the 'choices' we make?

If your internet provider can determine what you are downloading before it gets to your hard drive, does that hinder what you choose to download?

If I 'choose' to do only good and god is aware of that prior to my existence do I therefore have no free will?

I wasn't aware that I had to argue in agreement with your idea that the living entity is not eternal

I can utilize my free will in any way I choose, I simply choose to only do good.

and the moment your sense of self is covered by ignorance (which happens quite frequently in the material world) , what you deem "good" can easily turn out to be something else

I will never ever ever choose to do anything bad, god already knows this and always has.

due to the nature of ignorance, the living entity finds it difficult to commit to mere marriage vows, what to say of eternal vows of piety

Is that predisposed or simply knowledge of what I will do?

its a mess

How is free will any less if you create 6 billion people like me that choose to only do good?

throw a bit of self induced ignorance it with the mix and it gets messy

Unless of course you use a relatively common atheist argument that knowledge of choice negates free will or unless you espouse that there is something unfair about the non existent not being given a choice, bugeye?

try again