Electric cars are a pipe dream

... I think you and Billy are too defeatist to be involved in any debate seeking to solve this issue. I would hazard that you are both from the older cross-section of the community. ...
Not "defeatest" but "realistic". i.e. We just don't stop at the "wish and dream" hand-waving stage as you do. We do some realistic analysis of both the technology and the costs, especially the capital invested requirements.

If that makes us "old fashioned," God help you when only the wish and dreamers are in charge. The government will go into debt at twice the current rate subsidizing projects that could have been shown to be foolish with 10 minutes of back of the envelope analysis!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Adoucette. The USA's problem is comparable to Europes. Do you think that UK residents do not drive into Europe?
Not in any great numbers (percentage wise)

What you AGAIN fail to realize is that the EU is much denser population wise than the US. The EU has 115 people per km^2 compared to 37 for the US, so when you start talking about changing the roads as the solution, that doesn't work nearly as well in the US where we have 3 times the area and a bit over half as many people, meaning the problem is essentially SIX times as large as in the EU.

Do you think thousands of lorries do not drive across our borders delivering goods thousands of miles in both directions? LOL.

Sure, so?

USA is no longer the biggest economy in the world. Europe is. But we still manage to be more productive than you guys with crippling taxes on fuel. High time the Americans stopped dragging their heels I say.

Only partially correct.
EU is 500 million and has a GDP of 16 Trillion but that only comes to $32K per person
US is 300 million and has a GDP of 14 Trillion but that is $47K per person

So NO, we aren't dragging our heels, were just not as big as the EU, but we are far more productive.

I am with you. I don't think the US is going to be able to tackle this. You'll just have to follow our lead I suppose. Enjoy the back seat.

To the Brits?

LOL

Yeah, I've always been impressed with British Automotive engineering.

NOT

Do you know what the definition of a SHORT LIFE EXPECTANCY is?.
.

.

.

.

.
.

.

.

.

.

Having a Lucas Pacemaker.
 
adoucette, I restate. Laying wireless charging strips in roads is inexpensive in comparison to building new ones. The USA is lost I think. Would just be nice if the CO2 you guzzlers produce stayed put over the states.

Total BS

Covering just our NHS would take installing this on 160,000 miles. Since you'd have to put it on at least two lanes each way (for reliability), that's 640,000 miles of EMBEDDED induction loops and the power cabling to support it. Not to mention the power cables and generation plants for the thousands of miles of roads which in our country are often not near power lines or power plants.
And when you've done that you still haven't done any ANY state roads or the roads in the cities, towns and suburbs. Well guess what, that adds up to nearly 4 million more miles. Yes, 4 Million miles.

http://downloads.transportation.org/Kane-2006-03-10.pdf

So lets assume you only do half of those and only do two lanes on them (not good, but it's a start), so now we are looking at maybe 9 million miles of this induction wiring, or roughly 50 Billion feet. If you could do it for $5 per foot (unlikely) you are talking about a $250 Billion dollar expenditure on the roads alone. The problem is, to start with, no cars at all could take advantage of it.

Why?

Well the patent points it out, for the charging to be effective the precise height over the road has to be maintained.

The transmission loss is low in the induction of approximately ten percent, and depends crucially on the distance between road and vehicle. The optimum distance would allow for an active suspension and optoelectronic measurement methods are adjusted automatically. In production use in any case, a control system would be required, which activates the charging process only where it is established beyond doubt by a sensor that actually is also an electric car over the induction field.

So every car that uses this would have to have this height control system (problematic for trucks) and since car's have a life of ~13 years, it would take a decade, if every new car was one of these to switch over, but it wouldn't make sense to build many cars until you had most of the roads done and since all the roads aren't done, all these cars would have to have decent size batteries for when they weren't over the induction loops. Considering how long it would take to build out the road system, if we started today this is like a three decade solution, with little payback at all for the first two decades.

No one in the US would consider funding this expensive monstrosity.

Arthur
 
Yes, I have some old post about them. In my prior general discussion of battery fundamentals I noted that the "over voltage" (Vc -Vb) increased with charging current I and that is always true.

However, what is really the the operative factor is the current density at the electrode surfaces. For crude example, imagine you had an exact duplicate of the original battery and were putting I/2 into each. That would result in a lower current density and a lower Vc and thus less heat production, just as if you took twice as long to charge the original battery.

What microporous electrodes do for you is increase the effective size of the electrode surface, compared to its gross dimensional surface area. I.e. it is, on a microscopic scale, operating with a lower current density and lower Vc and less heat production.

But there are two costs to this approach: one immediately obvious - the higher cost of electrode production, compared to just a simple solid plate.

The second is perhaps more serious. The stability of a chemically active micro structure. Not only are the normal diffusion processes acting to destroy its structure, but electrode atoms are actively being at least chemically transformed, if not actually removed from the electrode during the discharge and redeposited to the surface during charge (or conversely)

Thus it is not surprizing that your link noted a drop to 85% performance after only 100 charge / discharge cycles. They did not tell the extent or depth of the discharge, but I doubt it was full discharge then full recharge. But even if it was, would you be happy with a battery that lost 15% of its capacity in the first three months with daily near full discharge?

Generally speaking as the micro structure of new battery is degraded, the degredation on each addition cycle increases. I.e. at the end of six months of daily use in a EV with one full recharge each night, about 1/3 of the original capacity would be gone. After about a year of daily use, your driving range on battery only would be less than half what you paid for.

I will be more impress when a porous electrode battery can retain 90% (or more) of the original energy storage capacity after 1000 deep discharge cycles. Losing only 10% of your battery capacity in first three years may be acceptable to many, but AFAIK, no one has come even close to achieving that with porous electrodes that permit cutting the normal recharge time to less than 20 minutes. If you have a link to anyone claiming to have achieved that, please post it. Until them, please stop with your unsupported "wish and dream" posts.

Choosing to ignore innovation, and innovation's potential is the problem here I think. Technology isn't fixed, it develops. The development you falsly state is needed for my continual participation in this debate is no doubt just years away. The premise of this thread to say electric cars are a pipe dream is the issue here. EVs are far from a pipe dream, they are a reality that is already on our roads and streets. The tech will develop even more and move to remove the issues you have. It's not wishful thinking. It is evolution of science.
 
Not in any great numbers (percentage wise)

What you AGAIN fail to realize is that the EU is much denser population wise than the US. The EU has 115 people per km^2 compared to 37 for the US, so when you start talking about changing the roads as the solution, that doesn't work nearly as well in the US where we have 3 times the area and a bit over half as many people, meaning the problem is essentially SIX times as large as in the EU.

Crap. Higher pop density in itself cretes problems. But the problems are essentially the same. Long roads that need coverage.



Sure, so?

So I am highlighting the fact the borders of Europe and UK have comparable traffic to those of the US.



Only partially correct.
EU is 500 million and has a GDP of 16 Trillion but that only comes to $32K per person
US is 300 million and has a GDP of 14 Trillion but that is $47K per person

So NO, we aren't dragging our heels, were just not as big as the EU, but we are far more productive.

Rank↓ Country↓ GDP (PPP) $Million↓
— World 74,264,873
— European Union 15,170,419
1 United States 14,657,800





To the Brits?

To Europe. That is the comparison.


Yeah, I've always been impressed with British Automotive engineering.
Better than the noisy gas guzzling crap the US produces. Do you think American models of cars sell well across the rest of the world. No, they are to thirsty and expensive. Ford sells different models here (designed by Brits, in fact a lot of car manufacturers that matter employ British designers) We simply don't want the shit the US citizens buy. We can't afford the fuel taxes. Besides manufacturing isn't what the UK does anymore (shame because the industrial revolution started here. Don't try to attack British innovation and industrial ability. You are just showing your ignorance). We run the worlds finances instead.

Do you know what the definition of a SHORT LIFE EXPECTANCY is?.

Life expectancy is higher in UK than US, though I admit European union LE is only .5-.7% higher more or less.
 
Last edited:
Total BS

Covering just our NHS would take installing this on 160,000 miles. Since you'd have to put it on at least two lanes each way (for reliability), that's 640,000 miles of EMBEDDED induction loops and the power cabling to support it. Not to mention the power cables and generation plants for the thousands of miles of roads which in our country are often not near power lines or power plants.
And when you've done that you still haven't done any ANY state roads or the roads in the cities, towns and suburbs. Well guess what, that adds up to nearly 4 million more miles. Yes, 4 Million miles.

http://downloads.transportation.org/Kane-2006-03-10.pdf

So lets assume you only do half of those and only do two lanes on them (not good, but it's a start), so now we are looking at maybe 9 million miles of this induction wiring, or roughly 50 Billion feet. If you could do it for $5 per foot (unlikely) you are talking about a $250 Billion dollar expenditure on the roads alone. The problem is, to start with, no cars at all could take advantage of it.

Why?

Well the patent points it out, for the charging to be effective the precise height over the road has to be maintained.



So every car that uses this would have to have this height control system (problematic for trucks) and since car's have a life of ~13 years, it would take a decade, if every new car was one of these to switch over, but it wouldn't make sense to build many cars until you had most of the roads done and since all the roads aren't done, all these cars would have to have decent size batteries for when they weren't over the induction loops. Considering how long it would take to build out the road system, if we started today this is like a three decade solution, with little payback at all for the first two decades.

No one in the US would consider funding this expensive monstrosity.

Arthur

Again you assume this tech will not develop. If it was ready to go now it would be being trialed on the road already. No one said it is ready to go. I merely point out that innovation finds a way around negativity.
 
Total BS

you are talking about a $250 Billion dollar expenditure on the roads alone. The problem is, to start with, no cars at all could take advantage of it.

Over ten years that's the NASA budget per year during the Moon missions heyday right there LOL. Double it if you want. Very doable over 20 years given the will. Of course the truth is it will take longer to convince the blinded US consumer so the outlay per year would be decreased if stretched over a longer time frame.
 
Last edited:
How does science and innovation devoid of 'wishing and dreaming' equal success. This stance you are taking is BS. Wishing and dreaming is a main factor in scientific development. Ridiculous.
 
Over ten years that's the NASA budget per year during the Moon missions heyday right there LOL. Double it if you want. Very doable over 20 years given the will. Of course the truth is it will take longer to convince the blinded US consumer so the outlay per year would be decreased if stretched over a longer time frame.

No, No, No. That was the bargain basement price of just $5 per foot which I used as a guess but think is highly unlikely. Remember this thing has to be a two way system and detect the car and switch on the power only where/when a car is above it and it has to continuously feed a billing system which means it's not only power in, it's info out for the entire 4 millon miles of highway and over 200 million vehicles, and so the billing system itself would be by far the largest billing system in operation in the US, having to keep track of every car on the highway, including the date/time of every car sale so as to be able to associate it to the correct billing account of the driver, so this massive additional billing system added to the cost of our highways would just be an other huge expense to create and maintain. Not to mention, as I already pointed out, we spend over $60 Billion on road upkeep per year now, with this significant complexity added to the roads, (everytime we repaved we'd have to reset these (remember height is critical)) and so now the already high cost of road repair goes up. Every year.

Secondly I estimated the costs for only installing it in HALF of the highways and included NO cost associated with adding all the extra power lines to connect this to places where there are no power lines (trust me on this, that's a LOT of our Midwest and Mountain states) to make this work (Transmission lines can run up to $1 million or more per mile).

So a more realistic estimate of the cost of the road ugrades to install this system is probably three to four times that number when you add in upgrades to the power distribution/generation system and the annual maint costs, including the new billing system would be huge as well. Worse that's nearly all upfront spending with NO reduction in fuel use based on that spending at all, for decades, so no, it's not very doable.

Finally, this is CLEARLY a system where the cost structure favors areas with high population densities, so one would think that the EU, with twice the population as the US and three times the population density would be the leader in this, not the US, but AFAIK there is no suggestion in any of the articles that the EU is even considering this.

Which is not surprising.

Arthur
 
Last edited:
... No one in the US would consider funding this expensive monstrosity. Arthur
You just don't get it do you Arthur. Wishers and dreamers don't worry about cost or technical feasibility.

The inductive recharge road way is probably technically feasible but does have many technical problems to over come. I however include efficiency as a technical consideration. Probably at least 9 units of energy would be converted into heat for every unit of energy put into the battery.

Part of this large loss fraction is due to the fact the roadway coils are large and have large currents in them with large RI^2 losses. They are relative low voltage high current devices as it is ONLY* the current that makes the inductive field. That means that every 100 meters or so along the roadway there is a high voltage to low voltage transformer. You can only efficiently transmit electrical energy long distance at high voltage. Typical power line is at at least 50,000 volts so the step down ratio would be greater than 1000 and be associated with considerable loss, just in the transformers.

The cost of hundreds of millions (one every 100 meters along the road) of large high-step-down high peak power capable transformers would be more than the cost of the cars using them. The cars on the hi-way are traveling at about 100 feet per second which means you have only about 0.01 seconds to transfer energy form the road way coil to the car coil, yet the car requires considerable energy (as is supplied by gasoline in the IC car). Thus each coil and the road side transformers are a very high power system that delivers energy less than 1% of the time - I.e. power level capacity, which is what determines the cost of the transformers and coils is more than 1000 times the average power level as they are rarely in use - very low duty cycle, even when the traffic is heavy the duty cycle would not exceed 0.01! This is just backwards for what is economically feasible in electrical generation system. I.e. they use low capital cost gas turbines, to serve their low duty cycle peak demands. Never can you afford high capital cost equipment that just sits unused 99.9% of the time. At night it might be minutes between coil turn on, for recharge duration of 0.01 seconds as the car passes rapidly over the roadway coil.

Unfortunately, these large inductance coils can not come up to full current in the tiny fraction of a second they will be used. At least 0.1 second will be require for their currents to build to desired full strength. Likewise you can not just switch the current off instantly -Doing that, even if the switch could not be destroyed by the high voltage inductive arc, would send many kiloVolt voltage spike back to the low voltage side of the roadway transformer and destroy it as well as a lightning strike could. (Lightning protection of all the road side transformers is another practical and cost problem I will not discuss.)

Thus the coil will be energized at least 10 times longer than it is in use - this alone will kill the efficiency of the system, but probably not be as great an energy loss as in the transformers which are energized 100% of the time even if only supplying current for coils pulsed on for only 0.1 seconds.

Also It should at least be mentioned that the metal bottom of the car is over the energized road way coil longer than the car's energy pick-up coil is and eddy currents are induce in that metal I.e. more energy will just heat the car bottom than will enter the battery

When these losses (and others not discussed) are added up, less than 5% of the system energy ends up in the battery. That could be greatly improved by having the car pull off the road every 10 miles or so and sit for five or more minutes to statically recharge.** - Perhaps system efficiency could then approach 50% but I assume dropping the car's averge speed to <15 mph on the hi-way is not acceptable so will assume the system efficiency is 0.05 and that half of the system energy comes from a fossil fuel. That mean this road way coil recharge systrem will boost CO2 release ten fold compared to fossil fuel IC cars.

Like the battery swap recharge system suggested by wishers and dreamers, who re not capable of any analysis, this roadway recharge coils system may have very limited applications. For example as "people movers" in Zoos or Disney Land type of park where instead of short cars rapidly passing over the roadway coils a long train like vehicle is moving at less than 5mph for the people on board to see the animals etc. But as a general hi-way system for short, rapidly moving, cars, it is DoA, at least by a factor or 25. I.e. even if the cost could be reduced 25 fold and the energy efficiency increased by 10 fold, the system would still be DoA.

*NOTE: Electric trains are feasible as they are NOT collecting their energy inductively. The trains use high voltages to move along the track, no need for high currents to get their power as in the inductive roadway coils. Even still they have power transformers (with about 10 to 1 voltage step down) every few miles to energize the over head high voltage lines. I.e. the energy travels from the power plant to these transformers at ~10 times higher voltage still (for 100 times less RI^2 losses in energy distribution) than the high voltage in the over head lines the train is using.

** During peak traffic times, this "improved efficiency" side-of-the-road recharge coil system has the same "wait in line" problem that the battery swap system does. I.e. there typically will be 10 or more cars waiting in line for their turn to recharge, so your recharge delay is nearly an hour and your average speed down the highway drops far below what you could achieve if on a bi-cycle.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Crap. Higher pop density in itself cretes problems. But the problems are essentially the same. Long roads that need coverage.

So you just don't care that the US is three times less dense and has about half as many people making the problem roughly 6 times as large?
No wonder you can't make your case, you ignore the basic economics underlying your solutions.

So I am highlighting the fact the borders of Europe and UK have comparable traffic to those of the US.
Again, So what?


Rank↓ Country↓ GDP (PPP) $Million↓
— World 74,264,873
— European Union 15,170,419
1 United States 14,657,800

Yeah, that is just an indicator that the EU has 200 million more people than the US, but you left out the most important figure didn't you?

GDP PER PERSON, EU = $32K vs US $47K.

Better than the noisy gas guzzling crap the US produces. Do you think American models of cars sell well across the rest of the world. No, they are to thirsty and expensive. Ford sells different models here (designed by Brits, in fact a lot of car manufacturers that matter employ British designers) We simply don't want the shit the US citizens buy. We can't afford the fuel taxes.

Cars in the US are designed for the US market and we sell many more cars with more muscle than the typical EU cars because we drive them further and faster because we often have much further to go. Again, you keep forgetting how much larger and less dense the US is compared to the UK. Of course that basic fact affects the cars you drive. Still, GM & Ford represent 20% of the EU car market and GM alone sells 6 million cars outside the US.
 
Again you assume this tech will not develop. If it was ready to go now it would be being trialed on the road already. No one said it is ready to go. I merely point out that innovation finds a way around negativity.

No, you presume that because it theoretically could be done that it will be done. Yet you have provided no evidence that this system is in consideration as a solution to any country's transportation system anywhere in the world.

Arthur
 
No, No, No. That was the price at $5 per foot which I used as a guess but think is highly unlikely (remember this thing has to be a two way system and detect the car and switch on the power only where/when a car is above it and it has a billing system built in which means it's not only power in, it's info out, and so the billing system itself would be very expensive to maintain), and I estimated the costs for only installing it in HALF of the highways and included NO cost associated with adding all the extra power lines to connect this to places where there are no power lines (trust me on this, that's a LOT of our Midwest and Mountain states) to make this work (Transmission lines can run up to $1 million or more per mile).

I know what you were saying I was just saying it could be done. Quadruple the cost if you want to. The strips themselves transport the power. it would need feeds of course. But I wouldn't imagine this being installed across country anyway. It would spread from cities like I said. I think this tangent is not going to be the significant problem anyway as the quick charge will dominate I reckon.

So a more realistic estimate of the cost of the road ugrades is probably three times that number when you add in upgrades to the power distribution/generation system. But that's nearly all upfront spending with NO reduction in fuel use based on that spending at all, so no, it's not very doable.

I don't know why you imagine it would need to be upfront spending. EVs are going to be more limiting than ICE cars at first of course. It is a gradual phasing out and in. People who need to travel long distances could obtain permits for ICE cars until changes happened. It is all work-outable.

Not to mention, as I already pointed out, we spend over $60 Billion on road upkeep per year now, with this significant complexity added to the roads, (everytime we repaved we'd have to reset these (remember height is critical)) and so now the already high cost of road repair goes up. Every year.
All problems that could be remedied with ingenuity.

Finally, this is CLEARLY a system where the cost structure favors areas with high population densities, so one would think that the EU, with twice the population as the US and three times the population density would be the leader in this, not the US, but AFAIK there is no suggestion in any of the articles that the EU is even considering this.

Which is not surprising.

Arthur

500 million to 300 mill, hardly double, but never mind that. You point is valid in that it COULD spread across Europe with less outlay, but like I said pop density would cause problems the US wouldn't have.

Honestly the truth is you do have some valid points and the technology would need to come on somewhat before it could even be contemplated employing it on a large scale. I just wanted to point out that if political will was there for such a project it could happen. I do not agree this technology is all (area) or nothing. It could spread. Induction strips around cities, batswap available for people who want a quick service, fast charging the norm.

EVs are far from being a pipe dream.
 
Yeah, that is just an indicator that the EU has 200 million more people than the US, but you left out the most important figure didn't you?

GDP PER PERSON, EU = $32K vs US $47K.

PPP is the most important stat. What's the use of people earning money that has less value within an economic framework. People in Europe are better off because our money has more value per person within our economic framework. This means we are cleverer at using what we have, more bang for buck. Europes success will continue to rise. And is set to outrun the US bigtime. Truth is the times of the USA's dominance are over. China and India are up and coming fast. Europe is already for me more successful than the US. Hardtimes are indeed ahead for you guys.



Cars in the US are designed for the US market and we sell many more cars with more muscle than the typical EU cars because we drive them further and faster because we often have much further to go.

What twaddle. 55mph limit. Go to Germany, its more like a 150mph norm. Cars do not need muscle to drive further. And you can be damned sure European cars are just as fast. They just use the fuel more efficiently. Like I said, gas is too cheap for you guys.

Again, you keep forgetting how much larger and less dense the US is compared to the UK. Of course that basic fact affects the cars you drive. Still, GM & Ford represent 20% of the EU car market and GM alone sells 6 million cars outside the US.

There is a love for big cars in america, and believe me, I get it. I love muscle cars, they sound great. But they are not part of a CO2 reduction equation. EU consumers buy many less gas guzzlers. In fact our ford models are smaller across the range.
 
Last edited:
No, you presume that because it theoretically could be done that it will be done. Yet you have provided no evidence that this system is in consideration as a solution to any country's transportation system anywhere in the world.

Arthur

I didn't say it will be done. I just stated it is still a possibility. You state it isn't possible. I state it is. Simple.

If the Germans get to a point where they think this tech has staying power they will trial it on a larger scale. Until then it still remains a possibility.
 
How does science and innovation devoid of 'wishing and dreaming' equal success. This stance you are taking is BS. Wishing and dreaming is a main factor in scientific development. Ridiculous.

No one said "wishing and dreaming" aren't part of the creative/scientific process, but you have to take it PAST the "wishing and dreaming" point and apply sound economic analysis to determine if your wishes and dreams make sense in the market place.

The trouble is, when we do this to your ideas you simply become defensive and don't address the issues that are brought up.
 
No one said "wishing and dreaming" aren't part of the creative/scientific process, but you have to take it PAST the "wishing and dreaming" point and apply sound economic analysis to determine if your wishes and dreams make sense in the market place.

The trouble is, when we do this to your ideas you simply become defensive and don't address the issues that are brought up.

I have addressed all the issues. For me EVs are (and will become more) economically viable. YOU aren't being defensive LOL. Debate is full of cut and thrust. If you don't want that what are you doing here? Frustration because the debate isn't going how you wan't it too is understandable but hardly a point to support your cause.
 
Last edited:
PPP is the most important stat. What's the use of people earning money that has less value within an economic framework.

EU GDP PPP per capita = $30K
US GDP PPP per capita = $47K

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

What twaddle. 55mph limit. Go to Germany, its more like a 150mph norm. Cars do not need muscle to drive further. And you can be damned sure European cars are just as fast. They just use the fuel more efficiently. Like I said, gas is too cheap for you guys.

55 mph was repealed in 95 (and no one paid much attention to it then)

No, I've been to Germany and driving on the AB isn't 150 MPH NORM.

From the internet:

I was in Germany two days ago ( wednesday ). In Garmish Partenkirchen. Filled the tank and went at 15h30, through, Munchen, Ulm, Stuttgart, Karlsruhe and stopped for the night near Strasbourg.
424km, no stop for fuel or whatsoever. Took me a bit more than 5 hours. A fantastic average of 80km/h. And that was with DSC off, S6, P500, and going hard as many times as I could legally do. Top speed 250 km/h ( yes, my car is stock ECU ) The only good point: the lowest fuel consumption of my whole 6000km journey: 13,3L.
The bad point: german autobahns are a nightmare 95% of the time. So many road contructions limited to 60 or 80 km/h during various km. Many 120 km/h zones. Some 100 and 80 km/h zones. Some traffic, two good rains storms, autobahn quality is generally very poor...I had never gone so slow on a long journey in any country
To put it into perspective, yesterday I drove from there till Paris, 600km with one stop for fuel and lunch with the children ( 45mn ). Trip took 5h30. That is 110 km/h versus 80, and one loooong stop vs no stop at all.

So after 2 weeks in Germany where I covered more than 2000 km: german autobahns are OK if you are local, you know the right delimited places, and go for a short blast of speed late at night when the weather is dry. Otherwise, if you plan to be fast on a long journey and join your target in a short time, totally forget about it, you will be slower than in any other country with limited speeds.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e6...bahn-800km-run-average-speed-consumption.html

In contrast US Interstates are generally in good shape and speed limits are generally 70 or 75 MPH now and normal traffic away from the cities routinely runs ~10 MPH above the limit (that's the fudge factor you usually get from the police radar sites), but more importantly, the Autobahn is a measly 7,500 miles long, our highspeed, limited access interstate system is 48,000 miles (and yes we do, like Germany, have parts of it without speed limits).

There is a love for big cars in america, and believe me, I get it. I love muscle cars, they sound great. But they are not part of a CO2 reduction equation.

So? People have a lot of different needs when they decide on what car to buy. Gas milage is just ONE of those.

Arthur
 
Last edited:
I have addressed all the issues. For me EVs are (and will become more) economically viable. YOU aren't being defensive LOL. Debate is full of cut and thrust. If you don't want that what are you doing here? Frustration because the debate isn't going how you wan't it too is understandable but hardly a point to support your cause.

Not at all.

The discussion is about EVs.

I'm not being defensive at all, just looking at the issue logically and from an economic/technology perspective.

You pushed Battery Swapping as a solution for the Consumer market even though it is not a good fit.

You pushed Rapid Charging as the solution even though it doesn't exist and indeed creates it's own set of problems due to lack of ability in our grid to generate the enormous amount of power in a short period of time that a quick charging based system demands (indeed, our power companies really look forward to the time when the current low night time demand goes up as all these resting cars recharge overnight, that just makes better use of existing generating capacity, but you add a HUGE demand in the middle of the current PEAK (which extensive fast charging would do), and that's just a HUGE expense of adding even more peak charging capacity.

Then you pushed the most rediculous system of all, tear up 4 million miles of roadway X 4 lanes and install the worlds biggest slot car track, and do at least half of it before it makes sense to start building cars to take advantage of this massive amount of up front spending. (you fail to realize the huge business/personal disruption it would be to our highway system just to install this monstrosity).

Now go back and look at the thread.

What have I really said?

I've said that Battery Swapping can work for Fleet Cars and Taxis.

Indeed, that's what Better Place seems to be thinking as well since they initially tried it out on Taxis and claim to have signed up 90 Fleet users in Israel as their base. Billy and I've shown very clearly why it doesn't fit the normal consumer market or work between cities, you just don't like the analysis (though you have not shown where the analysis is flawed).

I've said that the EVs like the Leaf will find their niche in mainly urban markets and as the commuter car for suburban families that have an IC car for other uses (which is a large percent of them), so clearly there is a large market for these cars, which will improve as the cost of gas goes up.

I've said that Extended Range EVs like the Volt will be a transition vehicle as the recharging network gets built out, with most drivers being able to get more than 50% of their miles off the grid to start with and more as time goes by. Again, it's penetration will improve as the cost of gas goes up.

The Plug in Prius is just a variation on the Volt, which won't get quite as much milage off the grid, but will still be attractive to buyers with slightly different needs.

I've said that existing Hybrids will take an ever larger share of the market, and help to significantly increase the average MPG of our car fleet, which will tend to take some of the pressure off of gas prices.

As Billy has pointed out, Ethanol will continue to play a larger and larger role in our fuel mix as will CNG (though not so much in the US, there are however 10 million+ CNG vehicles on the road already). BioDiesel will also become a bigger part of our mix. These three will also tend to take some of the pressure off of gas prices.

Arthur
 
Back
Top