Electric cars are a pipe dream

[Michael]

Not at all. It's just impossible with current chemistries. (Of course, 20 years ago a 600 watt-hour per liter battery was impossible too.)

I believe it actually IS impossible. Hydrocarbons are the densest storage of energy outside of nuclear power. At least, that's how it's been explained to me.

Will batteries get much better? Yes. I think we'll probably use them too. But, even if you had the 'ideal' battery it can't store as much energy per weight as liquid fuel.

 

[Billy T]

... It's physically impossible to make a battery that is more efficient than hydrocarbons. ...

Not very hard to do that - make battery more EFFICIENT than burning hydrocarbon fuel as usually done. Usually at least twice the efficiency is achieved, but if hydrocarbon is oxidized in a fuel cell, there may be little advantage if any to the battery IN EFFICIENCY as fuel cells are really basically batteries with easy and rapid recharge potential.

BTW, yesterday´s newspaper in Sao Paulo told the city had bought two battery powered taxi cabs. More than 90% of the taxi cabs for this city of ~20 million run on LNG (or compressed NG) so the new cabs, even in much greater numbers will not greatly reduce air pollution.

Paper said they cost R$200,000, but it was not clear if that is for both or each. Currently, a dollar buys 2R$ so I hope that R$ 200K was for both, not each.

Probably it was for both as the most common way politicians get rich is to grossly over pay for products or construction jobs and get a kick-back of say 50% or so. I.e. perhaps cabs actually cost $50K, and the kick-back was 50K dollars too. The best business to go into in Brazil is elected government "service."

 

[Aman shah]

The discussion misses talk about world's most Advanced Electric car with world record range of 480 Kms/charge or 300 miles.
It pases all safety standards and crash test.
The only problem is the cost.
With a cost of a BMW 5-Series,it is affordable to only the rich.

It has a world record super fast production battery charging system.
(45 minutes for full charge with special charging system)

Scientists and engineers are now trying to increase the electric car's range from 300 miles per charge to 500 and even heard 650 miles approximately.So I disagree that Hydrocarbon based fuels cannot be replaced by more practical electric cars.

 

[Aman shah]

Please visit http://www.teslamotors.com/models for more info.
It comes in 3 battery range options.

Forget those still polluting hybrids.
No other hybrid car till now manages 480 Kms. on single charge till now.
Chevrolet Volt barely manages some 120 Kms. or more or less on a single charge of battery.
A typical hybrid in reality reduces around 20-30 percent emissions but it is not a green car of the future.
Honda,toyota are trying to attract customers by big slogans in their catalogs about Special Hybrid technology being made through R&D .They try to attract customers by false branding about Hybrids as high end technology.

The real hero is the Model S.
Safe and practical electric car battery technology is closer than you think.
The only major problem may be the production cost,which may be minimised a lot in comming decade.

 

[sigurdV]

Going electric surely is the future, but I think using magnetic induction by an electric cable in the road is the fastest way to get there! The car battery need not be so efficient since it can be loaded continuosly by the road cable.

 

[Aman shah]

A car does not go in one direction.It will be difficult to change different cables for different routes.
Much better is application of MAGLEV train technology application to cars in a way that routes can be changed anyway.
MAGLEV uses levitation from ground,not through cables.

But I think,that will be even more expensive than expensive electric cars like Model S.

 

[sigurdV]

A car does not go in one direction.It will be difficult to change different cables for different routes.
Much better is application of MAGLEV train technology application to cars in a way that routes can be changed anyway.
MAGLEV uses levitation from ground,not through cables.

But I think,that will be even more expensive than expensive electric cars like Model S.

Are you sure one cable is not enough for both sides of the road?

The car will use a battery... the point of the cable is keeping it fully loaded all the time.

 

[Aman shah]

When you and I are in a car and we decide to go to a place A.
Suddenly I got a call from my friend that he is near to A at some other place and suddenly I change my mood to go to my friend's place.
I need to operate on different cable then!
That means I need efficient cable shifting machenism
A car is not a train which moves only on a same dedicated path everyday.We can change lanes with a car at anytime as per mood.

The best way of cutting down costs of Tesla Model S is to share a common tech platform with all electric car companies which do not have technology as advanced as Model S and to collectively decide that allmost all will buy only electric cars.
More demand means less purchase cost.
More collaborative research on a single platform means more efficiency in design idea and less initial development costs.
Offcoarse different electric technologies should also given a chance but presently only Tesla has world's most advanced electric car tech.
Mercedes and Toyota has already signed a technology sharing deal with Tesla Motors Inc.
300 miles per charge is not a joke:no one else as of today offers this much range in the market.

 

[sigurdV]

When you and I are in a car and we decide to go to a place A.
Suddenly I got a call from my friend that he is near to A at some other place and suddenly I change my mood to go to my friend's place.
I need to operate on different cable then!
That means I need efficient cable shifting machenism
A car is not a train which moves only on a same dedicated path everyday.We can change lanes with a car at anytime as per mood.

The best way of cutting down costs of Tesla Model S is to share a common tech platform with all electric car companies which do not have technology as advanced as Model S and to collectively decide that allmost all will buy only electric cars.
More demand means less purchase cost.
More collaborative research on a single platform means more efficiency in design idea and less initial development costs.
Offcoarse different electric technologies should also given a chance but presently only Tesla has world's most advanced electric car tech.
Mercedes and Toyota has already signed a technology sharing deal with Tesla Motors Inc.
300 miles per charge is not a joke:so me any other production car with this mileage as of now.

I dont see the problem: Use magnetic induction to charge the battery of the car... meaning the car is not stuck to the electric cable! No problem travelling some miles on an offroad having no induction cable.

 

[Aman shah]

I dont see the problem: Use magnetic induction to charge the battery of the car... meaning the car is not stuck to the electric cable! No problem travelling some miles on an offroad having no induction cable.

That's an intelligent solution indeed!Why not all governments of the world do collaborative effort to make this happen?

I think we have solutions.The cleanest example is Model S.
The problem is the ideas are scattered and effort is not collaborated.

 

[sigurdV]

That's an intelligent solution indeed!Why not all governments of the world do collaborative effort to make this happen?

Hey! Do you really mean it, or do you see a problem I dont??

 

[Aman shah]

Problems can be in robust structural systems carrying cables.If cables are not fixed in a proper way,they can even be dangerous.This problems can be solved only by responsible high Quality structural systems with good integrity in design and construction.This is an engineering challenge.

And this is not something which cannot be done.

However,incorporating this safely in developing countries which have very low safety standards like my country" India "would be a biggest problem.

 

[sigurdV]

Problems can be in robust structural systems carrying cables.If cables are not fixed in a proper way,they can even be dangerous.This problems can be solved only by responsible high Quality structural systems with good integrity in design and construction.
This is an engineering challenge.

And this is not something which cannot be done.

However,incorporating this safely in developing countries which have very low safety standards like my country" India "would be a biggest problem.

My problem is I have NO engineering ability. But I think that if the battery/batteries of an electric car gets charged (somehow) while the car is driving then theres no hurry to develop cars and batteries further.

We should ask the engineers what is the best (and safest) way to use our existing technololgy to build inductive roads!

 

[Billy T]

Going electric surely is the future, but I think using magnetic induction by an electric cable in the road is the fastest way to get there! The car battery need not be so efficient since it can be loaded continuosly by the road cable.

Do a little analysis of what fraction of the induction field energy can be captured by a pick up coil in car. I think you will find you have a system where >95% of the energy is lost if the road coils are always energized.

If you want to have sensors in the road that detect the presence of a car, then you have great problems quickly building up strong fields as that is the nature of large inductors - they resist rapid current changes unless the already existing AC field is helping drive them. I.e. the power levels to rapidly energize the field to full strength would be prohibitively costly.

Induction recharge works well when power levels are small, like recharge of cell phone in half an hour or electric tooth brush over night, but not for an energy hungry car speeding by the road coil at 60mph.

 

[sigurdV]

Do a little analysis of what fraction of the induction field energy can be captured by a pick up coil in car. I think you will find you have a system where >95% of the energy is lost if the road coils are always energized.

If you want to have sensors in the road that detect the presence of a car, then you have great problems quickly building up strong fields as that is the nature of large inductors - they resist rapid current changes unless the already existing AC field is helping drive them. I.e. the power levels to rapidly energize the field to full strength would be prohibitively costly.

Induction recharge works well when power levels are small, like recharge of cell phone in half an hour or electric tooth brush over night, but not for an energy hungry car speeding by the road coil at 60mph.

Sorry cant do that calculation myself. But I think it should be done. I dont dismiss your conclusions,
but if they are the first serious objections raised there could be room for improvent like:
Can one make the fully energized field move with the same speed as the car?

To me this is just a passing idea while reading this thread...
It struck me as new and if THIS is true then it should be carefully scrutinized by experts,
and if it is old than why has there been no mention of it? Where can we read about it?

Also: In Japan magnetic induction moves high speed trains ...
Are you sure it is impossible to charge a moving car battery in a similar way?

 

[Billy T]

Can one make the fully energized field move with the same speed as the car? ...

Yes, that is possible and would greatly improve the transfer efficiency, but do you think all cars will go the same speed, no passing, etc.

Also it would be very inferior still to sliding contact with over head high voltage line, like electric trains and trolleys use.

The closest thing you will find about the moving field idea is in discussion of magnetic rail guns. They are not very efficient - make more heat than KE in the projectile, but can achieve higher final velocities than chemical fuels can (if long enough)

 

[sigurdV]

Yes, that is possible and would greatly improve the transfer efficiency, but do you think all cars will go the same speed, no passing, etc.

Also it would be very inferior still to sliding contact with over head high voltage line, like electric trains and trolleys use.

The closest thing you will find about the moving field idea is in discussion of magnetic rail guns. They are not very efficient - make more heat than KE in the projectile, but can achieve higher final velocities than chemical fuels can (if long enough)

On heavily trafficated roads perhaps automated driving is a good idea... Computer controlled traffic would solve that objection.
Also I notice good side effects like diminishing traffic congestions,less accidents,faster traffic flow etc.

My basic idea is charging the battery while the electric car is driving, hopefully keeping it fully charged!
HOW to do it in the best, safest and most economical way really is for experts to decide!
So then: Has this strategy been explored before?

 

[Billy T]

... My basic idea is charging the battery while the electric car is driving, hopefully keeping it fully charged!
HOW to do it in the best, safest and most economical way really is for experts to decide!
So then: Has this strategy been explored before?

the basic appeal of your own cars is that you can go any where and that is not consistent with the idea of power from a fixed line. That works great for shared vehicles on fixed routes - tolleys for more than 100 years and trains for at least 50 years.

 

[sigurdV]

the basic appeal of your own cars is that you can go any where and that is not consistent with the idea of power from a fixed line. That works great for shared vehicles on fixed routes - tolleys for more than 100 years and trains for at least 50 years.

But my point is that the electric car on an inductive road is not fixed in the same way as a train or tolley is!

It can maneuver as it wish, if it leaves the inductive road for a non inductive road then it runs on its own battery as long as it lasts!

It cannot (yet) drive as long on its battery/batteries as a petrol car can on its full tank...
But the electric car on an inductive road need not stop for filling an empty tank.

I accept that keeping the battery on full charge in the electric car, by magnetic induction while driving,
may be a costly idea, but the car can still go anywhere a petrol car can: Its freedom is no less!

 

[Michael]

Not very hard to do that - make battery more EFFICIENT than burning hydrocarbon fuel as usually done. Usually at least twice the efficiency is achieved, but if hydrocarbon is oxidized in a fuel cell, there may be little advantage if any to the battery IN EFFICIENCY as fuel cells are really basically batteries with easy and rapid recharge potential.

Let me make sure I have you correct. In terms of weight, a battery can carry more energy than pure hydrocarbon?