education course for ignorant atheists

[James R]

Most of theist philosophy is to help your fellow man in your community and that thought comes from god .

No. For example, if you read the bible, most of it is about the importance of having one God and making sure it is the right god. There's a little about helping your fellow man, but it's a negligible amount compared to the stuff about being obedient to God and so on.

So if you don't have that command from god , you don't have such obligation , so what does that lives you with ? Self centered

That's only one option among many.

If you're an atheist humanist, for example, then obviously you're not self-centred, because humanism is a philosophy that espouses things like equality, moral duty and so on.

But your idea that people are only moral when God commands them to be is flawed anyway.

Ask yourself the question that Plato asked 2000 years ago: is something right or wrong only because God said so, or is there a standard of morality that is independent of God?

If things are only right and wrong because God said so, then morality is arbitrary. But if God says things are right and wrong because he knows from some other source what is right and wrong, then morality doesn't come from God - it comes from that other source.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Why is this thread in human science?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

arauca:



You're right!

Atheism isn't a system of morals or a philosophy of life. It is just a statement that gods don't exist.

If you want a secular philosophy or guide to how to live, you ought to look at something like Humanism.



I hope so.



How do you figure that? Atheism isn't a philosophy of selfishness; it's just a non-belief in gods.



I'm not a big fan of transhumanism myself.

Are you a transhumanist religious person?

James' post has all the correct answers in it. I often wonder why some theists insist that atheism be some kind of complex philosophical ideology.

 

[leopold]

I have a pear in my belief? I thought it was a grapefruit!

you really don't want to know what is lurking in my belief.

I need to ask you, what it is you want?

how about drinks, dancing, and a good movie after?

You mean like the Christians did, murdering thousands in the process?

let's not pick on any religion.
hindus, buddhists, islamists, that strange jungle totem worshipper, i'm sure they ALL have something to hide. or up their sleeve.

 

[Bells]

Why is this thread in human science?

If he wishes to discuss it as a human condition, in so far as how it applies to the human psyche, then sure, it can stay here. If however that is not the case, then I have my pitchfork ready.

you really don't want to know what is lurking in my belief.

A pineapple?

You dirty bastard!

how about drinks, dancing, and a good movie after?

No dinner?

You cheap bastard!

:m:

let's not pick on any religion.
hindus, buddhists, islamists, that strange jungle totem worshipper, i'm sure they ALL have something to hide. or up their sleeve.

Of course they do.

 

[billvon]

I sustain that atheism does not have much to offer to the society , beside no ,no ,no.

Well, religion has given us the Crusades, 9/11, the IRA (and the Troubles) the Spanish Inquisition etc. Generally if you find some people really, really angry at other people you're going to find religion at fault.

I believe the believer is advancing in time with education and in science and will continue advance.

Well, except in Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana etc. Religious people there seem to be somewhat averse to some parts of science.

Atheism offers to the society only selfishness.

Hmm. So you think that, say, Stephen Hawking has done nothing for society, but Osama Bin Laden has shown how religion leads to generosity?

Whether people are good and bad - whether they are selfish or generous - whether they contribute to science or not - has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with who they are. (True of a lot of things, not just religion.)

 

[Mind Over Matter]

Atheism isn't a system of morals or a philosophy of life. It is just a statement that gods don't exist.

Read Sartre to really get a handle on what atheism offers - Nausea, Being and Nothingness, etc. or read Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus for a more positive take on it all.

And from what I've gathered... it's more of a "I can do whatever I want, and still be a good person." So, if you just flesh that out slightly... that means that the definition of who is a good person is subjective for atheists. Because it is subjective, that means individuals have to call the shots on morality themselves.

Depending on yourself to make moral judgements= selfishness

 

[James R]

Depending on yourself to make moral judgements= selfishness

Who else can you depend on? In your daily life you'll make at least one moral judgment a day on average, I'd guess, and sometimes many more than that.

Who are you going to call to tell you what to do?

 

[cosmictraveler]

Why are you pounding the past . we are in the present times are different .
Why don't you guys like Dawkins don' go into a jungle of Venezuela , Brazil ir to Africa teach them there is no deity and civilize them and teach them your order.

Times are different, how's that? Look around and see the war that is going on with the Islamics among themselves and the rest of the world with their Jihads? Have religions really helped those in India where the Caste system still is being used to enslave people? While the west doesn't have torture or deaths many other countries that are highly religious do still treat those with differing points of view about the religion in charge with torture and death if those people don't change their minds. So you still can't see the truth about religion because you don't want to understand the truth but only what you've been told by those religions that are in charge of swaying your opinions to their POV.

 

[arauca]

Well, religion has given us the Crusades, 9/11, the IRA (and the Troubles) the Spanish Inquisition etc. Generally if you find some people really, really angry at other people you're going to find religion at fault.



Well, except in Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana etc. Religious people there seem to be somewhat averse to some parts of science.



Hmm. So you think that, say, Stephen Hawking has done nothing for society, but Osama Bin Laden has shown how religion leads to generosity?

Whether people are good and bad - whether they are selfish or generous - whether they contribute to science or not - has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with who they are. (True of a lot of things, not just religion.)

Next time before you give your comment read previous posts # 19 will tell you .

What do you expect from southern states there is a freedom of choice . In the mentioned states there is advanced research taking place .
In the former Soviet union they had enough of atheistic indoctrination . Have you seen how religion is spreading ? So is in China and Vietnam . Let people have their choice. Religious ( Christian ) environment provide liberty for you to be anti deity , I don't believe if your kind of system be in power would permit religious freedom.

 

[arauca]

Times are different, how's that? Look around and see the war that is going on with the Islamics among themselves and the rest of the world with their Jihads? Have religions really helped those in India where the Caste system still is being used to enslave people? While the west doesn't have torture or deaths many other countries that are highly religious do still treat those with differing points of view about the religion in charge with torture and death if those people don't change their minds. So you still can't see the truth about religion because you don't want to understand the truth but only what you've been told by those religions that are in charge of swaying your opinions to their POV.

I am sorry in my post # 19 I meant with regard to Christian environment , so I speak about christian environment .

 

[arauca]

Well, religion has given us the Crusades, 9/11, the IRA (and the Troubles) the Spanish Inquisition etc. Generally if you find some people really, really angry at other people you're going to find religion at fault.



Well, except in Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana etc. Religious people there seem to be somewhat averse to some parts of science.



Hmm. So you think that, say, Stephen Hawking has done nothing for society, but Osama Bin Laden has shown how religion leads to generosity?

Whether people are good and bad - whether they are selfish or generous - whether they contribute to science or not - has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with who they are. (True of a lot of things, not just religion.)

Next time before you give your comment read previous posts # 19 will tell you .

What do you expect from southern states there is a freedom of choice . In the mentioned states there is advanced research taking place .
In the former Soviet union they had enough of atheistic indoctrination . Have you seen how religion is spreading ? So is in China and Vietnam . Let people have their choice. Religious ( Christian ) environment provide liberty for you to be anti deity , I don't believe if your kind of system be in power would permit religious freedom.

 

[Thoreau]

What aspects of religion should atheists (respectfully) adopt? Alain de Botton suggests a "religion for atheists" -- call it Atheism 2.0.
Peter Faust on
Alain de Botton: Atheism 2.0
“ I love this video. While some of you are markedly more critical of him and his "intentions", I happen to wish for the same thing he does. Being a former fundamentalist christian, I have a much more personal and unique perspective on religion. Basically when you wake up from your slumber and begin to question all the ridiculous dogma you once held dear, you can't really live the same lifestyle anymore.
The problem is, religious lifestyle isn't all that bad. Sure people give lectures all day long but no place in the secular world would dare to give a sermon. Why should pastors have the monopoly on teaching values? We may pride ourselves on our independent thought but, why shouldn't there be people to "teach" values? The church is a fantastic community structure, there simply is no equivalent in secular society. I doubt a TED conference has anywhere near the level of comradery you'd find at my old church. In my opinion, they are basically small individualized community centers that somehow manage to forgo the sterility of any other comparable system.
While this idea of atheism 2.0 could basically be called humanism, I think his point is still very relevant. Temples and churches have been around as long as we have. I think it's endurance is proof that it's catering to some kind of need. I have yet to see a humanist church and why haven't I?"
See on program TED Posted on January 2012

I haven't watched the video nor read the replying posts, but I think I've got the jist of the thesis.

To say that there are certain "values" that atheists could adopt, I'm assuming this implies moral values. And morality, as we all know, transends religion. Religion didn't set the laws of what is right or wrong. (OK, well, in some cultures and traditions, they did). But over all, morality as a whole is not a product of religion.

So, to say that Atheists could adopt a "religious principle" like the Golden Rule (treat others as you'd like to be treated) is rather a self-centered and ignorant claim. Who's to say that Atheists don't already live by that rule?

Now, as far as the whole humanist church thing... they do exist. Take a look at the Unitarian Universalist Church. You can't get much more humanist than that.

And the reason why Atheists don't preach is because they don't have a need to. Preaching, in the religious arena, has only a few main purposes: 1)Pursuade others to believe you, and 2) educate them on your beliefs.

I feel that Atheists and other freethinkers simply don't have as strong a desire to do so as that of their religious counterparts.

 

[leopold]

You dirty bastard!

wait. bells, i can explain if you'll . . .

You cheap bastard!

but bells . . .

:m:

ah, that's better.
a wink and a hoot.
what's in the other hand?
an axe with my name on it?

 

[Bells]

Next time before you give your comment read previous posts # 19 will tell you .

What do you expect from southern states there is a freedom of choice . In the mentioned states there is advanced research taking place .
In the former Soviet union they had enough of atheistic indoctrination . Have you seen how religion is spreading ? So is in China and Vietnam . Let people have their choice. Religious ( Christian ) environment provide liberty for you to be anti deity , I don't believe if your kind of system be in power would permit religious freedom.

What kind of 'system' do you assume Billvon is advocating arauca?

ah, that's better.
a wink and a hoot.
what's in the other hand?
an axe with my name on it?

Nonsense!

An axe.. pfft..

It's a rocket launcher.

 

[GeoffP]

Next time before you give your comment read previous posts # 19 will tell you .

What do you expect from southern states there is a freedom of choice . In the mentioned states there is advanced research taking place .
In the former Soviet union they had enough of atheistic indoctrination . Have you seen how religion is spreading ? So is in China and Vietnam . Let people have their choice. Religious ( Christian ) environment provide liberty for you to be anti deity , I don't believe if your kind of system be in power would permit religious freedom.

There are a variety of theocracies or near-theocracies that active discriminate against various forms of belief.

 

[billvon]

Next time before you give your comment read previous posts # 19 will tell you.

I did. And I decided to discuss history anyway.

In general I find that it's a good idea to not ignore history; people who do tend to have to repeat it.

In the former Soviet union they had enough of atheistic indoctrination.

And in several Middle Eastern countries they have had enough of religious government and are switching to secular governments; apparently they prefer that over religious rule. Heck, the US was FOUNDED by people who wanted a secular government over a religious one.

Have you seen how religion is spreading ?

So is AIDS. "Spreading" is not a measure of how desirable something is.

Religious ( Christian ) environment provide liberty for you to be anti deity

And secular governments generally allow you to worship any god you want. Heck, you can worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster here if you want to.

I don't believe if your kind of system be in power would permit religious freedom.

What is "my kind of system?" (this should be good)

 

[arauca]

I did. And I decided to discuss history anyway.

In general I find that it's a good idea to not ignore history; people who do tend to have to repeat it.



And in several Middle Eastern countries they have had enough of religious government and are switching to secular governments; apparently they prefer that over religious rule. Heck, the US was FOUNDED by people who wanted a secular government over a religious one.



So is AIDS. "Spreading" is not a measure of how desirable something is.



And secular governments generally allow you to worship any god you want. Heck, you can worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster here if you want to.



What is "my kind of system?" (this should be good)

I have respect for your academic. know how. but we have very little agreement on this topic . and I leave it so.

 

[arauca]

I haven't watched the video nor read the replying posts, but I think I've got the jist of the thesis.

To say that there are certain "values" that atheists could adopt, I'm assuming this implies moral values. And morality, as we all know, transends religion. Religion didn't set the laws of what is right or wrong. (OK, well, in some cultures and traditions, they did). But over all, morality as a whole is not a product of religion.

So, to say that Atheists could adopt a "religious principle" like the Golden Rule (treat others as you'd like to be treated) is rather a self-centered and ignorant claim. Who's to say that Atheists don't already live by that rule?

Now, as far as the whole humanist church thing... they do exist. Take a look at the Unitarian Universalist Church. You can't get much more humanist than that.

And the reason why Atheists don't preach is because they don't have a need to. Preaching, in the religious arena, has only a few main purposes: 1)Pursuade others to believe you, and 2) educate them on your beliefs.

I feel that Atheists and other freethinkers simply don't have as strong a desire to do so as that of their religious counterparts.

Fellow take a break for 19 minutes , it is one if your kind , you have have a preconceived notion

 

[arauca]

Times are different, how's that? Look around and see the war that is going on with the Islamics among themselves and the rest of the world with their Jihads? Have religions really helped those in India where the Caste system still is being used to enslave people? While the west doesn't have torture or deaths many other countries that are highly religious do still treat those with differing points of view about the religion in charge with torture and death if those people don't change their minds. So you still can't see the truth about religion because you don't want to understand the truth but only what you've been told by those religions that are in charge of swaying your opinions to their POV.

Pal I have been among atheist for many years, you folks have educated me to be a stronger believer, you folks have made me look deeper into science and science sustains my faith