Education and Religion

[Thoreau]

I thought this was a very interesting poll...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148427/Say-Bible-Literally.aspx

Is it safe to say that the more educated the person the less likely they are to believe in the Bible?

 

[Jan Ardena]

I thought this was a very interesting poll...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148427/Say-Bible-Literally.aspx

Is it safe to say that the more educated the person the less likely they are to believe in the Bible?

What exactly do you mean by ''believe in the Bible''?
And what exactly do you mean by ''educated person''?

jan.

 

[Balerion]

I thought this was a very interesting poll...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148427/Say-Bible-Literally.aspx

Is it safe to say that the more educated the person the less likely they are to believe in the Bible?

I don't know what you mean by "believe in the bible." The poll indicates that college graduates are more likely to believe the bible is fiction than they are to believe it is literal truth. It also implies that college graduates who believe in God are more moderate. Hence the bible being "inspired" rather than "literal."

 

[Thoreau]

Yes, I know. I meant that.

 

[Yazata]

It's complicated.

Here's some data taken drom the 2008 ARIS (American Religious Identification Survey) on percentage of college graduates aged 25 and over by self-identification with a particular church/tradition. (Data from table 11 on page 16 of the pdf version of the 2008 ARIS report.)

I've added each church/tradition's percentage of the US population in parentheses, so you can see how large a fraction of the total each of these various groups are. (Data from table 3 on page 5 of the pdf version of the 2008 ARIS report.)

Pentecostal/charismatic -- 13% -- (3.5%)
Baptist -- 16% -- (15.8%)
Catholic -- 25% -- (25.1%)
"Christian" generic -- 26% -- (14.2%)
Average for US population -- 27% - (100%)
No religion -- 31% -- (15.0%)
"Don't know"/refused to answer -- 31% -- (5.2%)
Mormon/LDS -- 31% -- (1.4%)
New religious movements and other -- 33% -- (1.2%)
Mainline Protestant -- 35% -- (12.9%)
Jewish -- 57% -- (1.2%)
Eastern Religions -- 59% -- (0.9%)

This data seems to show that people with university degrees are disproportionately likely to be Mormons, members of the more theologically liberal Protestant denominations such as Episcopalians and Methodists, to be religious experimenters/eclectics, or are non-Christians.

They are less likely to be Baptists or Pentecostals, where fundamentalists are more likely to be found. Catholics are highly split internally, between lots of newly arrived Mexicans and groups like Irish and Italian Catholics who, if separated out, would probably resemble the mainline Protestants.

'No religion' (and 'refused to answer') came in a little higher than average, but not up at the top. That spot is occupied by two non-Christian groups, by the Jews and by Eastern Religions (the majority of whom identify themselves as Buddhists.)

 

[Balerion]

Good stuff, Yazata.

I always wonder how many of the people who identify as a certain religion actually practice it. Most of the Catholics, Christians, and Jews I've met live their lives without consideration for the tenants of their faith.

 

[Jeeves]

Are we taking that poll as literally accurate? (I meant the bible poll, not the religions, which i had not read before starting this post)
This is self-reporting, not objective observation, right? Are we making allowance for intimidation, appeasement and just plain good manners? Suppose the people who say "inspired" really think it's all a crock, but won't, for various reasons, say so? Suppose even the literalists are not 100% sincere, or don't exactly know what the words 'literal' and 'inspired' mean. Suppose some of them are flat-out lying.

Well, of course, the more books you've read and the more intelligent people you've spent time with, the less likely you are to take any book on faith. But the numbers in the poll? I wouldn't take them on faith.

 

[Yazata]

I always wonder how many of the people who identify as a certain religion actually practice it. Most of the Catholics, Christians, and Jews I've met live their lives without consideration for the tenants of their faith.

I'd speculate that many of the so-called "Christian generic" group are nominal Christians at best. These are people who apparently weren't members of any organized religious denomination but who still told the interviewers that they were "Christians". (I can imagine them kind of shrugging their shoulders when they said it, with an implied "I guess...".)

Catholics are a notoriously unobservant lot. I know lots of people who identify themselves as Catholics because of ethnicity (as in "Irish Catholic") or upbringing (maybe they attended Catholic school) but who haven't attended mass in decades.

The Jews are interesting. Only 1.2% of Americans identified their religion as Jewish. But almost twice that percentage will say that they are Jewish if you ask them about their ethnicity. So close to half of self-identified American Jews no longer think of Judaism as their religion.

We probably also need to remember that religious self-identification is something very different than religious belief.

Here's some more data from ARIS (table 4 from page 8) where respondents were asked, "Regarding the existence of God, do you think..."

There is no such thing -- 2.3%
There is no way to know -- 4.3%
I'm not sure -- 5.7%
There is a higher power but no personal God -- 12.1%
There is definitely a personal God -- 69.5%
Refused to answer -- 6.1%

So 2.3% are flat-out atheists, with another 10.0% agnostics, split between strong and weak varieties. Then there's another 12.1% that have some sort of transcedental intuitions but no conventional God-belief. That adds up to about 1/4 of the adult population. Just under 70% express belief in a personal God. (And I'd guess that for many of those, it's a pretty nominal belief, just the expected thing for them to say, and that it doesn't really influence their daily life very much at all.)

Interestingly, about 76% of Americans identify themselves as being generic "Christians" or as adherents of one of the many Christian denominations, so apparently almost 10% of self-identified American Christians don't even believe in a personal God. (Probably a lot of Episcopalians...) Clearly a certain amount of church adherence in the US is social, like membership in a club, or simply nominal, just what people tell interviewers.

 

[parmalee]

What exactly is meant by "educated" here? And, educated in what? I suspect that a polling of those with bachelor's degrees, or higher, distinguished by their fields of study might yield some interesting--and divergent--results.

Of people I know "fairly well"--meaning, well enough to have gleaned some sense as to what they do and do not belief in such matters--most have, at least, a bachelor's degree. BUT, the overwhelming majority of these people have degrees either in Art or the Liberal Arts. I know only a small percentage of people with degrees in sciences, slightly more people with degrees in the social sciences, and very, very few people with degrees in things like Business or Accounting, or anything of that nature. In fact, I don't think I "know" (as in, know fairly well) a single person with anything like a Business degree. (I'm only concerning myself here with people in the U.S., as per the OP.)

The interesting thing is, I know perhaps all of 4 or 5 people who would describe themselves as Christian, 4 or 5 Jews (religious Jews, that is--ethnically, I would estimate that 15 to 20 percent of people I know are Jews), and maybe a few "other." The rest--roughly 90 to 95 percent--are atheist/agnostic, or pretty darn close. That doesn't really jibe with the national tally and I've never really known quite what to make of it.

What is most likely to account for this? As for where I've lived, I've actually "lived" in over twenty distinctive locales in the U.S. alone. And typically, coastal cities; otherwise, out in the middle-of-nowhere--where I tend not to know anyone anyways. Surely, that's partly to account--but still... Other factors to consider might be political leanings, socio-economic background (both past and present), occupations. Politically, I would describe pretty much everyone I know as either extreme left-wing or just... anarchic; socio-economics are varied, but most people I know make very little money and yet they live much "better" than most (IOW no kids and little compulsion to CONSUME); and occupations are varied with large concentrations in music, art, and agricultural (?) fields.

Point being: methinks "education" but one small facet in this--there's a whole lotta other factors to consider. But I really don't know what to make of the fact that 90-95 percent of people I know are atheist/agnostic, and yet I would hardly describe (most of) them as all that well educated in matters of science. And, while I describe myself as atheist/agnostic, I'm the furthest thing from the "militant" sort--and quite frankly, I can't stand many of the "new atheist" types. In fact, personally I find many to be far closer to fundie types than are many others.

 

[James R]

Jan Ardena:

What exactly do you mean by ''believe in the Bible''?
And what exactly do you mean by ''educated person''?

Didn't you read the opening post? In the context of the mentioned poll, quite obviously:

"Believe in the bible" means "believe the bible is the actual or inspired word of God" and "educated person" refers to whether one has a college degree, a postgraduate degree or whatever.

Just read the poll! How hard is it?

 

[Jan Ardena]

James R,

"Believe in the bible" means "believe the bible is the actual or inspired word of God"

I suppose if your given a questionaire which asks one to choose either or, then ones choice would represent that which is closer to ones position. But that is not a real overall representation. It is way more complicated than that.

...and "educated person" refers to whether one has a college degree, a postgraduate degree or whatever.

I take it that being educated to some level, somehow shows that the Bible is not to be believed in. Right?

How does that work?

Just read the poll! How hard is it?

I have. But I wish to delve deeper into the reasoning that devises the question. And how they define, belief in the bible, and how it manifests itself within the lives of these people who claim it.

This is a discussion so open it up, and see what lies behind the claims.

Personally, I think it is propaganda, even satanic.
But I may be wrong.


jan.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

I thought this was a very interesting poll...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148427/Say-Bible-Literally.aspx

Is it safe to say that the more educated the person the less likely they are to believe in the Bible?

When you make a stupid question, you will receive thousands of stupid answers.
I am making some stupid questions:

Do americans consider reading good?
Do people consider sex a good thing?
Does all the water of the world contain salt?

Here you put in the same basket the Pentateuch and the Gospels...

 

[Mind Over Matter]

Is it safe to say that the more educated the person the less likely they are to believe in the Bible?

Its is not.

A catholic priest spends years at seminary studying.As a general rule, education is extensive and lasts at least five or six years, depending on the national Programme of Priestly Formation.

In the United States, priests must have a four-year university degree in Catholic philosophy plus an additional four to five years of graduate-level seminary formation in theology with a focus on Biblical research. A Master of Divinity is the most common degree.

In Scotland, there is a mandatory year of preparation before entering seminary for a year dedicated to spiritual formation, followed by several years of study.

In Europe, Australasia and North America, seminarians usually graduate with a Master of Divinity or a Master of Theology degree, which is a four-year professional degree (as opposed to a Master of Arts which is an academic degree). At least four years are to be in theological studies at the major seminary.


I wonder would you consider Catholic priests to be 'educated'?

As to Americans taking the Bible literally.Would one not define those people as Sola Scriptura?

 

[Balerion]

Its is not.

A catholic priest spends years at seminary studying.As a general rule, education is extensive and lasts at least five or six years, depending on the national Programme of Priestly Formation.

In the United States, priests must have a four-year university degree in Catholic philosophy plus an additional four to five years of graduate-level seminary formation in theology with a focus on Biblical research. A Master of Divinity is the most common degree.

In Scotland, there is a mandatory year of preparation before entering seminary for a year dedicated to spiritual formation, followed by several years of study.

In Europe, Australasia and North America, seminarians usually graduate with a Master of Divinity or a Master of Theology degree, which is a four-year professional degree (as opposed to a Master of Arts which is an academic degree). At least four years are to be in theological studies at the major seminary.


I wonder would you consider Catholic priests to be 'educated'?

As to Americans taking the Bible literally.Would one not define those people as Sola Scriptura?

That doesn't mean that an educated person isn't still more likely to be an agnostic or atheist. Unless you believe priests make up the majority of our educated people?

 

[birch]

Good stuff, Yazata.

Most of the Catholics, Christians, and Jews I've met live their lives without consideration for the tenants of their faith.

it doesn't matter if they don't, it's whether they believe/endorse it.

 

[Balerion]

it doesn't matter if they don't, it's whether they believe/endorse it.

I don't think belief is relevant. Rather, whether or not they endorse the actions and strategies of their faith is the salient question. And on that count, I believe there is a correlation between endorsement and piety. Of course, I'm only basing this on personal experience; there may very well be some studies that debunk this theory.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

That doesn't mean that an educated person isn't still more likely to be an agnostic or atheist. Unless you believe priests make up the majority of our educated people?

My own opinoins have not been expressed I was referring to MZ3Boy84's question where he asked:

Is it safe to say that the more educated the person the less likely they are to believe in the Bible?

He made the question "Is it safe to say?" and I made an answer.

Would you consider a catholic priest to be educated? If so would they be less likely to believe in the bible? My point is "It is not safe to say that the more educated the person the less likely they are to believe in the Bible." The more educated a person does not necessarily mean they are more or less likely to believe in the bible.

 

[Balerion]

My own opinoins have not been expressed I was referring to MZ3Boy84's question where he asked:

He made the question "Is it safe to say?" and I made an answer.

Would you consider a catholic priest to be educated? If so would they be less likely to believe in the bible? My point is "It is not safe to say that the more educated the person the less likely they are to believe in the Bible." The more educated a person does not necessarily mean they are more or less likely to believe in the bible.

Saying a particular group "is more likely to be" does not mean that every person within the group is that way. It simply means that the greater number of that group are the that thing. In this case, the greater number of educated people do not believe in the bible as the literal word of god. Hence, an educated person is less likely to believe the bible to be the literal word of god.

Of course there will be educated people who do believe that to the case, but they are the minority.

 

[James R]

Jan Ardena:

I suppose if your given a questionaire which asks one to choose either or, then ones choice would represent that which is closer to ones position. But that is not a real overall representation. It is way more complicated than that.

Inevitably. Multiple-choice poll questions are always blunt instruments to some extent, if for no other reason than that they force respondents to choose one of a set of pre-defined positions. To claim that the results are therefore completely invalid is not warranted, though.

I take it that being educated to some level, somehow shows that the Bible is not to be believed in. Right?

No. The poll only shows that the more educated one is, the less likely one is to believe that the bible is the actual or inspired word of God.

There are many possible reasons why this correlation may exist. I'm sure you can think of some. You have already thought of one.

I have. But I wish to delve deeper into the reasoning that devises the question. And how they define, belief in the bible, and how it manifests itself within the lives of these people who claim it.

It's not a matter of how the pollsters define it. It's more a matter of how the respondents interpreted the question as phrased. The exact wording of the question is available, of course, if you're interested.

This is a discussion so open it up, and see what lies behind the claims.

Personally, I think it is propaganda, even satanic.
But I may be wrong.

So Gallup is a satanic organisation, is it?

Interesting.

 

[Balerion]

So Gallup is a satanic organisation, is it?

Interesting.

This same poster tried to connect atheism to satanism. I thought he/she was joking!