New strain of e coli is killing people in Europe.
1500 people in Germany have been infected, and 17 people are dead.
What think you?
1500 people in Germany have been infected, and 17 people are dead.
What think you?
E Coli Killer Vegetables infect Germany
- Thread starter Captain Kremmen
- Start date
That this has been identified as a new strain, and that they have yet to identify the source is a most troubling idea, and raises several questions.
1. If one new strain has been identified, will there be more?
2. Is this a failure of our agriculture food policy? If so, at what level? Is it related to genetic modification, growing and harvesting practice, or handling shipping and delivery practice?
3. Is this a 'natural' or designed turn of events, given that biological warfare is not a new concept?
4. Will the problem spread further afield, even to other continents?
Just a few of the things that cross my mind.
1. If one new strain has been identified, will there be more?
2. Is this a failure of our agriculture food policy? If so, at what level? Is it related to genetic modification, growing and harvesting practice, or handling shipping and delivery practice?
3. Is this a 'natural' or designed turn of events, given that biological warfare is not a new concept?
4. Will the problem spread further afield, even to other continents?
Just a few of the things that cross my mind.
>1. If one new strain has been identified, will there be more?
There are tens of thousands of identified strains of E Coli.
>2. Is this a failure of our agriculture food policy? If so, at what level? Is it
>related to genetic modification, growing and harvesting practice, or
>handling shipping and delivery practice?
Since E Coli has been with us for millions of years, and has been causing problems for at least that long, it is unlikely that it's anything new (i.e. genetic engineering.)
>3. Is this a 'natural' or designed turn of events, given that biological
>warfare is not a new concept?
Again, since E Coli has been causing problems for a long time, it's unlikely to be a new deliberate attempt to cause trouble.
There are tens of thousands of identified strains of E Coli.
>2. Is this a failure of our agriculture food policy? If so, at what level? Is it
>related to genetic modification, growing and harvesting practice, or
>handling shipping and delivery practice?
Since E Coli has been with us for millions of years, and has been causing problems for at least that long, it is unlikely that it's anything new (i.e. genetic engineering.)
>3. Is this a 'natural' or designed turn of events, given that biological
>warfare is not a new concept?
Again, since E Coli has been causing problems for a long time, it's unlikely to be a new deliberate attempt to cause trouble.
If it stops them from eating raw ground beef or pork on bread, (otherwise known simply as "ground", then I'm fine with it.
It's unlikely to stay in Germany, unless it is infected Sauerkraut.
No-one else eats the stuff.
Incubation time is 8 days.
No-one else eats the stuff.
Incubation time is 8 days.
They've pretty well linked it to imported vegetables. That's FAR from pinpointing the source, though, because of the hundreds of possible source-points involved - individual farms, transport and sorting/grading outfits, wholesalers, and final retail delivery. Lot's of work still left to do...
there are lots of ways, most common is actually human contamination (ie someone didnt clean there hands), cross contaimination from other sources (uncooked meat) to veg ect. You think before "organic" food movement that there were no food contaimination cases?
Chinese farmers, among others, commonly use human faeces for fertiliser.
It may not be organic farming which is to blame.
Cow and sheep manure quickly turns into a clean friable material like soil.
There is much more organic material in it.
I feel sorry for the Spanish farmers who had to dump tons of cucumbers needlessly.
This doesn't sound awfully different from previous E. coli outbreaks.
I was listening to a lecture on EHEC, ETEC, EIEC, Shigella, and other fecal-oral transmitted diarrheal bugs just last week, and those things have always been scary, nasty, and often lethal.
Cholera might be the worst. It's a nasty death, involving literally gallons of water-like diarrhea and very rapid dehydration. Although virtually unknown in the developed world of clean water supplies and reticulated sewerage, and not fatal if treated promptly, cholera still infects millions each year and kills around a hundred thousand (according to WHO paper linked from Wikipedia).
There is an ongoing cholera epidemic in Haiti (and spreading) that started over a year ago after the earthquake. It has killed over 5000 so far.
So, yeah. A new EHEC-like outbreak isn't that scary by comparison.
Pretty much the same thing.
It is not how quickly the soil turns friable that counts. it is how quickly the bacteria contained within die.
I read is an article on the subject that, to be sure of complete bacterial kill, manures have to be composted at 70C for three months.
How many organic farmers do you think bother to do that before adding manures to their soils?
Not good at all . That is my thought . Bummer . Feces is probably the cause . That is my guess. A new strain is worrisome. Sounds like E-coli is evolving ? I wonder when Mad Cow will flare back up ?
@skeptical
If you have a few warm dry sunny days, it is likely that most pathogens would die. But you're right, the pathogens can last a surprisingly long time in mixed or wet weather. So the crumble test is not good enough.
The manure from meat eating animals is a greater danger, because in addition to pathogens, they can spread parasites.
I thought that vegetarian manure was lower in harmful bacteria as well, but it seems not.
This site has very good information.
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/05-021.htm
If you have a few warm dry sunny days, it is likely that most pathogens would die. But you're right, the pathogens can last a surprisingly long time in mixed or wet weather. So the crumble test is not good enough.
The manure from meat eating animals is a greater danger, because in addition to pathogens, they can spread parasites.
I thought that vegetarian manure was lower in harmful bacteria as well, but it seems not.
This site has very good information.
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/05-021.htm
We have created these strains of E Coli bacteria that cause the massive sickness even in the US for years now, but they are getting more deadly over time.
The unbelievable international overuse of antibiotics in factory farms has been the source of the new strains. We've bred these new E Coli superbugs and they're coming home to roost.
The unbelievable international overuse of antibiotics in factory farms has been the source of the new strains. We've bred these new E Coli superbugs and they're coming home to roost.
True.
Pigs are the worst example.
The Soil Association says pigs may receive up to 10 different antibiotics, by injection, in water and in feed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/background_briefings/antibiotics/436398.stm
Pigs are the worst example.
The Soil Association says pigs may receive up to 10 different antibiotics, by injection, in water and in feed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/background_briefings/antibiotics/436398.stm
What's worse, the Europeans are treating this outbreak with antibiotics, which will take this toxic strain and make it even more deadly.
In the US we don't treat E Coli with antibiotics because we are well aware we are breeding these ever more dangerous strains that make it into the food supply via water and fertilizing. That last huge outbreak of E Coli in the US had the bacteria actually inside the lettuce or spinach.
The last time I saw a WHO report on this stuff they estimated that ~25,000 people a year die needlessly due to the overuse of antibiotics in factory farms. This is made worse by nations like India which use antibiotics for a scratch, or the sniffles, they take them for everything. They are having serious problems now with bugs they've created getting into the water supply there, and naturally those bugs are spreading out of the country with travel and tourism. Last I saw the Indian super bug had made it to the UK.
Naturally these bugs are at best highly resistant, and more commonly immune to all but restricted antibiotics. These are the class that are usually thousands of dollars a dose and only shipped to and used by hospitals. This is the last line of defense, since they are never used, never even made available, they are the ones used to kill resistant bugs only. Some of these news bugs have mutated under the load of antibiotics so much that even these restricted drugs will not eradicate them. That means there is no treatment.
A study done by a university here in the US found sharks in the Gulf of Mexico had multiple strains of highly resistant 'super bugs' living in them. This came from the overuse of antibiotics in factory farms, and the runoff of such, and the outright flushing of millions of pills a day down the toilet every day in the US.
It's not just E Coli, it's MRSA, it's other Staph strains, tuberculosis, STDs, etc.
We will not have the mastery over the microbial world like we've enjoyed this last century for much longer. It's scary stuff. We are engineering an amazing evolution of these microbial life forms, and the results will not be pretty.
In the US we don't treat E Coli with antibiotics because we are well aware we are breeding these ever more dangerous strains that make it into the food supply via water and fertilizing. That last huge outbreak of E Coli in the US had the bacteria actually inside the lettuce or spinach.
The last time I saw a WHO report on this stuff they estimated that ~25,000 people a year die needlessly due to the overuse of antibiotics in factory farms. This is made worse by nations like India which use antibiotics for a scratch, or the sniffles, they take them for everything. They are having serious problems now with bugs they've created getting into the water supply there, and naturally those bugs are spreading out of the country with travel and tourism. Last I saw the Indian super bug had made it to the UK.
Naturally these bugs are at best highly resistant, and more commonly immune to all but restricted antibiotics. These are the class that are usually thousands of dollars a dose and only shipped to and used by hospitals. This is the last line of defense, since they are never used, never even made available, they are the ones used to kill resistant bugs only. Some of these news bugs have mutated under the load of antibiotics so much that even these restricted drugs will not eradicate them. That means there is no treatment.
A study done by a university here in the US found sharks in the Gulf of Mexico had multiple strains of highly resistant 'super bugs' living in them. This came from the overuse of antibiotics in factory farms, and the runoff of such, and the outright flushing of millions of pills a day down the toilet every day in the US.
It's not just E Coli, it's MRSA, it's other Staph strains, tuberculosis, STDs, etc.
We will not have the mastery over the microbial world like we've enjoyed this last century for much longer. It's scary stuff. We are engineering an amazing evolution of these microbial life forms, and the results will not be pretty.
Of course no one was testing sharks before this so we dont know if they were in them.
This news report seems to counter that claim: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43265114/ns/health-food_safety/t/us-now-linked-german-e-coli-outbreak/
It appears that it's only *individuals* who already have antibiotics on the shelf that are taking them, not doctors who are prescribing them as your statement could be taken to indicate.