Dozens of heretics killed of in Pakistan... yet, again.

[iceaura]

Arrogant certainty and decisiveness in judgment is not devotion to principle.
”
How does it compare to infidelity to principles and vacillation in action?

It's harder to correct - you can't appeal to conscience, reason, or fact.

I find myself depending more and more on the predictability of the conservative and their greater devotion to their principles to understand how the world works.

And yet when they behave so predictably, without principle or ethic of moral, say by bombing and starving Iraqis and Afghanis in pursuit of money and power for themselves, the glories of war and domination for others, you do not acquire understanding of them - you deny their nature, assign blame to them as liberal, atheistic, irreligious.

You are so far from gaining understanding as to ascribe to them greater devotion to principle - except when they are liberal, atheistic, irreligious. The most selfish, foolish, even evil actions appear principled to you, if they are decisive. Meanwhile, even the kindest and most profound of people appear vacillating to you, simply by suspending judgment or compromising with the reality of the abusive, according to the principles of liberalism.

 

[Gustav]

B. Raman gets us back on topic with an in-depth look at the players in this incident.......

An unidentified Barelvi group of Pakistan has disseminated the following through the Internet after the twin suicide explosions in the Data Darbar sufi shrine of Lahore on the evening of July 1,2010, resulting in the death of 42 worshippers, the majority of them reportedly followers of the tolerant Barelvi sect which believes in Sufism : "Extremist Deobandis of the Sipah-e-Sahaba have once again attacked the Data Di Nagri (Data’s city), Lahore. This time their target was the sacred shrine of Hazrat Data Ganj Bakhsh Ali Hajveri, a Persian Sufi and scholar during the 11th century who significantly contributed to the spreading of Islam in South Asia. According to puritanical beliefs of extremist Deobandis and Wahhabis of the Sipah-e-Sahaba and Taliban, ordinary Sunni Muslims of the Barelvi belief are considered as polytheists (mushrik) because of their devotion to a peace loving Sufi (mystic) tradition of Islam. Therefore, narrow minded supporters of the Taliban and Sipah-e-Sahaba consider Barelvi / Sufi Muslims as grave worshippers and inferior Muslims. In the past, the Taliban / Sipah-e-Sahaba alliance have attacked a number of shrines in various parts of Pakistan, particularly in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and FATA (Federally-Administered Tribal Areas). In March 2009, the Taliban / Sipah-e-Sahaba militants detonated the shrine of Rehman Baba, a 17th Century Sufi poet of the Pashtun language. In March 2010, terrorists of Sipah-e-Sahaba attacked Eid Milad-un-Nabi processions in Faisalabad and D.I. Khan killing at least seven people. Only last week, in June 2010, the Deobandi terrorists of the Taliban / Sipah-e-Sahaba attacked and blew up the shrine of Mian Umar Baba in the jurisdiction of Chamkani police station."

The Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) has strongly denied any responsibility for the attack on the Sufi shrine which has caused considerable anger among the common people of Pakistan. In the past, anger over terrorist attacks used to be largely confined to the urban elite. For the first time, there is now widespread anger among large sections of the common people in Pakistan. In view of this, no organisation in Pakistan has claimed responsibility for the suicide blasts. On the contrary, the TTP and the various jihadi organisations of Punjab, which are often referred to as the Punjabi Taliban, have taken care to deny responsibility.

Among the organisations which have maintained a silence are the Sunni extremist Sipah-e-Sahaba (SES) and its off-shoot the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, both of which closely collaborate with the TTP, the Afghan Taliban and Al Qaeda and have hide-outs in South and North Waziristan. It is generally believed by Pakistani police officers that Qari Hussain Mehsud, who runs the suicide bomber training school of the TTP, started his career as a jihadi in the SES and now trains the volunteers for suicide missions belonging to the LEJ too in addition to training those of the TTP. The TTP projects the so-called martyrs of the LEJ, who die in suicide missions or in encounters with the security forces, as its own “martyrs”..........​

so ahh
some discrimination in any assignation of blame and ascription of causes would be appropriate. simply gibbering about the koran is somewhat retarded and entirely unproductive when it is obvious that there are more factors at play here than just some narrow minded and selective interpretations of a book

Why? What is it philosophically about Islam that brings out the worse most violent reaction in Pakistani people?

that blanket denunciation is pointless

 

[Gustav]

i do acknowledge and accept, to a degree, sam's antipathy towards us liberals.
we could have done more!. our shame, guilt and helplessness does nothing to assuage the suffering our policies have imposed in iraq and afghanistan. all that does is to help us sleep at night

 

[Michael]

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Islam doesn't have "one prophet," it has a lot of prophets (as). We accept all of the prophets from Musa (as) to Isa (as) to Muhammad (as). If you don't even know the theological context of this and the differences between Sunni beliefs and the beliefs of Ahmadis, then how am I to expect you know anything else about this at all? Not to mention the other considerations such as political, social and so forth.

People tend to do this when they don't want to think about the issues. It's a sort of involuntary fear knee-jerk reaction. You do recognize that when I wrote One Prophet I was referring to Mohammad and the fact that there are no more Prophets? That's the reason why certain Muslim sects as well as Bahai' (although in this case we're talking a New Adam, not Prophet) are persecuted where there are a lot of orthodoxy Muslims.

You really didn't understand that point? It was lost on you? The Ahmadiyya's maintain that Ghulam Ahmad fulfilled the Islamic prophecies as the world reformer of the end times. He claimed that he was the Mujaddid (divine reformer), the promised Messiah (“Second Coming of Christ”) and Mahdi all wrapped up into one. THAT was all just a little hard to gasp ........or was it a way for you to resort argumentum ad hominem?


So, do you think that other people of other religions, such as Buddhism or Native American beliefs or Shinto or Hinduism can teach the same ideas in Sura-108 even though they are not monotheistic?

SAM says no they can not. Their beliefs are so utterly inferior to Islam as to be right besides baby butchers. I mean, the Gods only know when one thinks of modern day Baby-Butchers their minds doesn't reflect on vaginal mutilation in Egypt or the burning of women and children Heretics in Pakistan, no, no, the mind naturally floats off to Tibetan Buddhist monks and the Dali Lama ....

 

[S.A.M.]

It's harder to correct - you can't appeal to conscience, reason, or fact.

The prophets were all liberals - every single one of them. And so when speaking of morality and conscience how strange it is that its the liberals who state positions they do not defend and the conservatives who defend the positions they state.

i do acknowledge and accept, to a degree, sam's antipathy towards us liberals.
we could have done more!. our shame, guilt and helplessness does nothing to assuage the suffering our policies have imposed in iraq and afghanistan. all that does is to help us sleep at night

Not more, no one is asking for more. They could simply stand by the positions they claim as their philosophy - instead they say one thing and do another. There is no real left anymore, apart from the odd Gustav or tiassa. There is only pretence. All the real leftists are now terrorists

 

[Gustav]

yeah
i've notice a steady radicalization towards the right by my liberal campesinos after 9/11.
despite that, progressives did come out in force to put obama into power only to be marginalized and ignored.

 

[S.A.M.]

progressives did come out in force to put obama into power

You still believe that? He was a product and he was advertised and sold in such a way that no one paid attention to what he said. He's a conservative

 

[Gustav]

/chuckle

there are of course fellas like kucinich i'd rather back but the idea is to get our man, a man, into the white house at any cost. it is only then the real battle begins....................

 

[S.A.M.]

And do you trust "your" side to come through? The voting pattern in the Senate doesn't seem to indicate so. Liberal or conservative, they are all pro-war, pro-military, pro-occupation, anti-accountability.

 

[Gustav]

trust? surely you joke? here, i'll repost a soundbite from belafonte...

We have done this before. We have been here before. When John Kennedy was the president of the United States of America, and we had an inaugural ball and all the festivities, this nation was filled with a great sense of hope in the future. And what we understood was that only those who were committed to peace, those who were committed to the civil rights movement, those who were committed to the women’s movement, those who were committed to progressive politics, had a critical role to play, and that was to be the caretakers of truth and the political future of America. John Kennedy came, not fully understanding the measure of that responsibility until we sat with him on numerous occasions to convince him that what we stood for was honorable, was moral and politically correct.

We have to do exactly the same thing with Barack Obama. If he fails, it is because we have failed. And if we succeed, there is no question that he will succeed.​

coincidentally, belafonte was involved in the kenyan airlift

Into the halls of U.S. higher education last week marched an exotic vanguard: 81 African students, including 78 Kenyans —the largest group ever to arrive from the British colony that most Americans know vaguely as the land of the Mau Mau. What the Kenyans knew about the U.S. was more specific: scholarships totaling some $100,000 were sending them to 52 colleges and universities, from Howard to Hawaii. The event was not one to make British colonial officials cheer.

The instigator was Kenya's canny Politician Tom Mboya, 28, currently embroiled in a hot fight to expand his native party. When Mboya swept through the U.S. on a speaking tour last spring, he roused support for a stirring project: giving able young Kenyans a crack at higher education. The Royal Technical College of East Africa in Nairobi grants only subuniversity diplomas. Kenyans with a yen for more than a technical degree must go to Uganda's Makerere College, an affiliate of the University of London, or somehow find their way overseas.

To Mboya's aid came prominent U.S. Negroes—notably ex-Dodger Jackie Robinson, Balladeer Harry Belafonte, Actor Sidney Poitier. In flowed the scholarships. The Americans chipped in plane fare; Africans chipped in pocket money. Carefully screened by Mboya, the 81 students enplaned for New York.

Robinson, Belafonte and Poitier let fly with a charge that Kenya's higher educational opportunities "are nonexistent under the repressive colonial system." "The facts are very different," snapped the British embassy's Colonial Attache Douglas Williams in a letter to the New York



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