Dog castration vs. tail docking

Fraggle Rocker said:
.Au contraire. Sometimes they get stuck and the very strong tail allows the owner to pull them out.
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I am really unsure why you think this is a contrary statement. I said Long Tails are NOT a disadvantage. However, in keeping with the thread:

From the AKC breed standard on Scottish Terriers:

The tail should be about seven inches long and never cut.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/scottish_terrier/index.cfm

Fraggle Rocker said:
Ironically, the American Kennel Club, which is less than 150 years old, has some of the most antiquated standards. They still require tail docking on many breeds or they're ineligible for shows.
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I believe the mandated docked tail or DQ was a rule in the past and if I remember right, it was changed in the late 70s. Again from the AKC standard:

Even if it is traditional in a particular breed that the dogs have one of these alterations, it has the same potential to win as any other dog of the breed and will only be judged based on the compliance of that dog to the breed standard.
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http://www.akc.org/events/conformation/faqs.cfm

I have to read the above as No natural tail (barring deformations) will be disqualified being as several breeds do DQ for docked tails.

http://www.akc.org/sitesearch/index.cfm?q=docked+and+disqualification&submitsearch=

I found no dog breed that has a DQ for undocked tails (or ears). I may have missed some.

Some breeds are penalized for undocked tails (poodle/boxer/etc) in the ring but again, this is simply the archaic mentality of SOME dog breeders, who also via that same mentality bred the brains out of some of the working/hunting dogs for coats and head shapes, introduced health issues via breeding for color and other aethestics and are not truely working for a better breed of dog.
 
milkweed said:
I believe the mandated docked tail or DQ was a rule in the past and if I remember right, it was changed in the late 70s. Again from the AKC standard. I have to read the above as No natural tail (barring deformations) will be disqualified being as several breeds do DQ for docked tails. Some breeds are penalized for undocked tails (poodle/boxer/etc) in the ring . . . .
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I'm glad to hear that the AKC has finally stopped requiring it. It's a shame that some individual judges still adhere to the old standard.
. . . . but again, this is simply the archaic mentality of SOME dog breeders, who also via that same mentality bred the brains out of some of the working/hunting dogs for coats and head shapes, introduced health issues via breeding for color and other aethestics and are not truely working for a better breed of dog.
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We began boycotting the AKC many years ago and now register our dogs with the UKC. Yeah, it isn't any better but it doesn't have the clout; reducing the AKC's power should be every breeder's goal.

Lhasa Apsos underwent some truly horrible breeding practices in the 1960s and 70s, when the puppy mills responded to the new market of women living alone in tiny apartments who wanted a dog that was solitary, inactive, and a good judge of people who came to the door. Our first Lhasa died at age 7 from so many defects that the vet could hardly list them. After twenty years of cleaning up the gene pool we've doubled that longevity. But we still have a long way to go: small breeds used to routinely live into their late teens.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
I'm glad to hear that the AKC has finally stopped requiring it. It's a shame that some individual judges still adhere to the old standard.We began boycotting the AKC many years ago and now register our dogs with the UKC. Yeah, it isn't any better but it doesn't have the clout; reducing the AKC's power should be every breeder's goal.

Lhasa Apsos underwent some truly horrible breeding practices in the 1960s and 70s, when the puppy mills responded to the new market of women living alone in tiny apartments who wanted a dog that was solitary, inactive, and a good judge of people who came to the door. Our first Lhasa died at age 7 from so many defects that the vet could hardly list them. After twenty years of cleaning up the gene pool we've doubled that longevity. But we still have a long way to go: small breeds used to routinely live into their late teens.
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thats why i like mutts, less genetic problems from inbreading
 
Asguard said:
thats why i like mutts, less genetic problems from inbreeding
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So many of the breeds have been ruined that even mongrels inherit their problems. Large mixed-breed dogs are almost as likely to have dysplasia as a German Shepherd or a Boxer or a Great Dane, because it was hybridized from those (and other similarly afflicted) ancestors.

We had an Anatolian, a gigantic breed imported from Turkey only a couple of decades ago. They hadn't yet been ruined by AKC standards and she lived to be fourteen. Everyone was amazed, because these days you're lucky for a large dog to live eight years.
 
My inlaws dog (the shepherd rotty x) is at least 10 ( they got him just before 09\01)
 
Bottom line is that people dock tails for human gratification. No matter what study[ies] you cite, the dog is not going to be "better off" with a docked tail.

This is done for personal gratification, not for the well-being of the dog. Anyone that says differently is going to have to overcome the very real issue of dogs using their tails to communicate. Cut half of your tongue off and see if that benefits you... :bugeye:
 
Randwolf said:
Bottom line is that people dock tails for human gratification. No matter what study[ies] you cite, the dog is not going to be "better off" with a docked tail.

This is done for personal gratification, not for the well-being of the dog. Anyone that says differently is going to have to overcome the very real issue of dogs using their tails to communicate. Cut half of your tongue off and see if that benefits you... :bugeye:
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A short docked tail wagging speaks the same as a long tail does to me. I'm sure I couldn't do as well with half a tongue.
 
Randwolf said:
Bottom line is that people dock tails for human gratification.
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But that is the reason why we keep dogs. :)

So if the dog could choose between being kept with short tail or not having him around at all, guess what would he choose???
 
Randwolf said:
Wrong. Well, perhaps to you, but not to another dog...
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And you would know that how exactly??? On the other hand I do know, that you are wrong, because when my docked tail dog signals to the other dogs (pretty much everyday, if you ask) they do get the picture....
 
Syzygys said:
And you would know that how exactly??? On the other hand I do know, that you are wrong, because when my docked tail dog signals to the other dogs (pretty much everyday, if you ask) they do get the picture....
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Well, that particular statement of mine seems to have generated a lot of naysayers to jump up and down...

My position not only rests on 50 years of personal experience plus numerous anecdotes, but I can back my suppositions. Can you? If you say dogs / wolves do not communicate using their tails, I would love to see how you arrived at that conclusion. However, I realize the burden is on me, so here we go for starters:
Aggressive & Fear – tail down or tucked, crouched, body lowered, hackles raised, nose wrinkled, growls, lowered head, ears back and close to head, eyes narrowed, lips drawn back, teeth barred

Alert - Tail may move from side to side, standing tall, ears forward, eyes wide
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Emphasis mine.
Quote from: Mendocino Coast Humane Society, picked at random from any number of Google results on the first page of searching "dog tail communication".

You guys are really trying to say that dogs don't use their tails to communicate? For real? Challenge me. I'll provide you with a hundred links - evaluate for yourself...

(I apologize for my lack of presence here recently, by the way...)

(Disclaimer: Do you really need 100 links? Would 25 do?)
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
“
Originally Posted by Randwolf
I'm not sure I totally agree with this assessment. To my knowledge, Rottweillers were, in fact, developed as a hunting breed. Source: Rottweiler information There are numerous other internet references, but I'm kind of in a hurry, so I grabbed the first available. But trust me, there are a thousand more.”
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As breeders we've heard all the legends. But the one that seems most likely true about Rottweilers is that they were originally working dogs in the Roman Empire, pulling carts and doing hard farm work in the Alps, where a horse is too big to do it.
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Please source this Fraggle. I provided citations with my quote, where are yours?
 
Randwolf said:
Well, that particular statement of mine seems to have generated a lot of naysayers to jump up and down...

My position not only rests on 50 years of personal experience plus numerous anecdotes, but I can back my suppositions. Can you? If you say dogs / wolves do not communicate using their tails, I would love to see how you arrived at that conclusion. However, I realize the burden is on me, so here we go for starters:Emphasis mine.
Quote from: Mendocino Coast Humane Society, picked at random from any number of Google results on the first page of searching "dog tail communication".

You guys are really trying to say that dogs don't use their tails to communicate? For real? Challenge me. I'll provide you with a hundred links - evaluate for yourself...

(I apologize for my lack of presence here recently, by the way...)

(Disclaimer: Do you really need 100 links? Would 25 do?)
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I never said dogs don't use the tail for communications. I said they don't really need it. Dogs actually read humans much better than humans do, and they don't have any problems reading another dog without a tail, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
 
KilljoyKlown said:
I never said dogs don't use the tail for communications. I said they don't really need it.
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Right. And you don't really need your tongue for communication. Sign language will do just fine.

KilljoyKlown said:
Dogs actually read humans much better than humans do...
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Perhaps. I guess that depends on the human in question. You were big on the "Dog Whisperer" earlier. Personally I speak "dog" pretty fluently. I'm very sorry if you haven't acquired this skill yet, keep at it...


KilljoyKlown said:
...and they don't have any problems reading another dog without a tail...
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Are you sure? Prove it...


KilljoyKlown said:
so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
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I'm trying to make the point that you are wrong. Docking a tail diminishes a dog's ability to communicate with another canine. By your own admission, dogs use their tails to communicate. Logically, if you take that option away from them, their ability to communicate is diminished. Yes? No?
 
Randwolf said:
You guys are really trying to say that dogs don't use their tails to communicate?
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Nope. What I say is that a short tail communicates as much as a long tail. My dog's tail is only 2 inches long, but he signals with it just fine. So docking didn't destroy his ability to talk "dog".

It is actually more fun because of the shortness of it, he can wave it really fast. His frequency is easily 5 times faster than a ladrador's....
 
Syzygys said:
Nope. What I say is that a short tail communicates as much as a long tail. My dog's tail is only 2 inches long, but he signals with it just fine. So docking didn't destroy his ability to talk "dog".
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Agreed. Docking didn't destroy communication, merely diminished the capability. Similar to an uncorrected "hair-lip".
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
One of the differences between Canis lupus familiaris and C. lupus lupus (the wolf) is that in dog packs a female is often the alpha. We've certainly observed that in our own packs.
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I'm sorry, Fraggle. I have never heard you assert this in the past. Do you claim to have raised / kept C. lupus lupus (to use the new taxonomy) in captivity? How did that work out for you?
 
Randwolf said:
Right. And you don't really need your tongue for communication. Sign language will do just fine.
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That might be a good example if all humans could use sign language.

Perhaps. I guess that depends on the human in question. You were big on the "Dog Whisperer" earlier. Personally I speak "dog" pretty fluently. I'm very sorry if you haven't acquired this skill yet, keep at it...
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Let's see I've never had a problem knowing when a dog was happy to see me. Nor do I have a problem knowing when they want to eat, when they want to go out, whey want to play...etc. As a matter of fact there weren't many things my dogs couldn't communicate to me.

I'm trying to make the point that you are wrong. Docking a tail diminishes a dog's ability to communicate with another canine. By your own admission, dogs use their tails to communicate. Logically, if you take that option away from them, their ability to communicate is diminished. Yes? No?
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Maybe a little, but I'm sure the owner doesn't notice, because their dog is still able to communicate all their needs quite well, and if the docking happened when the dog was a few days old they just don't miss it.
 
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