Does God, psychic abilities exist? (Again..)

[DarkMadMax]

You’re missing the point, something out of the ordinary happened, and I think the experts involved are sensible and rational to know that. It is silly to to doubt something because it does not agree with your ideals.

I find this operation is indeed out of ordinary .And kudos to specialists for being able to do that . But question is whether this case can serve as scientific proof of life after-death , astral body or whatever.

I doubt not the case itself ( though I want find more solid evideeces than few quotes) but the hasty conclusions you make out of it .Without detailed technical data and experts commision you cant tell if there were really anything to hype about . Like Jaxom said if brain was really dead we have proven ressurection ,not reanimation (which is not possible after brain dies) but ressurection . -That can pass as miracle!

And it has nothing to do with my ideals (which imho are rather flexibe ) , - I just want to know facts.

I am quite sure if you look hard enough you will find these sites or book references, as for me, it only confirms a reality told by many people throughout the world and throughout time.

I looked hard , and sadly didn't find references able to satisfy me . All I was able to find are links and quotes of this experiment on pro NDE sites , online magazines and in some usenet conferences (similar to this one) .

I have an article written by an experienced reanimatologist ,he describes in detail what can lead to NDE experiences and provides very convincing critics of NDE and NDE proponents (such as R. Moody ) . Sadly this article is in russian and I doubt link to it will help to prove my point.

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by DarkMadMax
You know guys there is a 1 million dollar prize for all those would be "mind readers" , "saints" etc.....

Yes, we know Max. Thank you for bringing it to our attention, though.

The biggest problem with those "evidences" is that they are smart mistification at best , at worst case it is unfounded rumors and hyped lies , those lies are repeated so many times that for ordinary Philistine they become true (old proverbial lie that becomes trrue if repeated enough times).

You see what you want to see, I guess. But just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't there.

Most people have "psychic" abilities, Max. You included, I'm sure. Who hasn't had the experience of "knowing" who was on the other end of a ringing phone, with no logical explanation for that knowledge? Haven't you ever been thinking strongly of someone you haven't seen or talked to in a gazillion years - and voila! There they are at your doorstep? Who hasn't at some point in their life been saved from some unfortunate accident by a "warning" that seems to come out of thin air? What mother hasn't had the experience of "knowing" her child was in trouble or needed her, without any external reason to explain that knowledge? These things happen to people all the time, Max, and I don't know of anyone who doesn't experience them. Some of us seem to be more gifted (developed?) in this area than others, just as with anything else - but we all have this ability to some extent.

So how about it, Max? I've shared some of my experiences with you - how about you sharing a few of yours? Because I'm certain that if you think about it hard enough, you'll remember something unexplainable that happened to you, and I'd really enjoy hearing about it.

 

[spacemanspiff]

Who hasn't had the experience of "knowing" who was on the other end of a ringing phone, with no logical explanation for that knowledge?

well considering there's a limited set of people who call you often. i bet everyonce and a while you could get it right.
I'm telling you right now the next person to call me will be my mother. doesn't mean i'm psychic.

Haven't you ever been thinking strongly of someone you haven't seen or talked to in a gazillion years - and voila! There they are at your doorstep?

how many times have you though about a person and then...nothing?

Who hasn't at some point in their life been saved from some unfortunate accident by a "warning" that seems to come out of thin air?

any idea how many times people have been hurt without warning?


My point is that conincedences do not make you psychic. If you can do something like predict lotto numbers on a regualar basis, that's psychic. I could guess who's calling me everytime the phone rings and i would be right sometimes. that don't make me pyschic.

I'll beleive it when i get better evidence than, "once i was thinking about the letter S, and then Sarah called!!"
gimmie my lucky lotto numbers!!!

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by spacemanspiff
well considering there's a limited set of people who call you often. i bet everyonce and a while you could get it right.
I'm telling you right now the next person to call me will be my mother. doesn't mean i'm psychic.

I did stipulate that there was no logical reason to know who was calling you. That obviously rules out anyone who calls you frequently. I'm talking about someone you haven't heard from in years, or someone you'd never expect to be calling you for any reason. But I grant you that those are simple examples that could be dismissed as coincidences. I have had many examples in my own life that I wouldn't call a coincidence. For example, there was the tire incident a few years back...

One day when I was leaving work, I had a strong feeling that I should check my tires before making the 20 mile trip home. Now that might be normal for some people - maybe even most people - but definitely not for me. I am a person who never thinks about my tires unless there is an obvious problem with them; until then, they don't even exist for me. But on this particular day, I had to walk around my car and check my tires. Well, there didn't seem to be anything wrong with them, and began to think I was imagining things. Then I saw a business card laying on the ground near my car, and had a strong urge to pick it up and look at it. Now I was beginning to get irritated with myself - first the tires which were fine, thank you - and now trash on the ground? Forget it! Ignoring the card, I got in my car and drove home, albeit a little more carefully than I might usually have done. When I got home, my husband, who was in the garage when I pulled in, greeted me with the information that my left rear tire was going flat! Now I was really curious about that business card that I had left on the ground. The next day I looked for the card and found it close to where it had been the day before. It was from the Costco Tire Center.

Coincidence? Maybe...

Speaking of odd coincidences, have you ever heard of a book called, Futility or The Wreck of the Titan, by Morgan Robertson? It was a novel about a ship called the Titan, and there were a number of similarities between the ship in the novel and the real Titanic, including the description of the ship, where the ship sank, point of impact and what time of day the ship sank. The interesting thing is, the novel was published in 1898 - 14 years before the disaster it described!

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by DarkMadMax
I find this operation is indeed out of ordinary .And kudos to specialists for being able to do that . But question is whether this case can serve as scientific proof of life after-death , astral body or whatever.

That is for the eye of the beholder, it has certainly created disturbance in the science community, as they cannot understand how this happened. For the people who have experienced similar phenomenons, it confirms to them that they are not alone.

If it doesn't prove existence of subtle body, then how do you account for the testimony of Pam Reynolds?

I doubt not the case itself ( though I want find more solid evideeces than few quotes) but the hasty conclusions you make out of it .

That is relative, you do not know my background or experience, so you have no idea as to whether or not I am being hasty. Apart from that, don’t worry about me , you seem pretty involved with this so you should find out for yourself.
This situation only reinforces the experiences of thousands if not millions and billions of testimonies, maybe it is time to stop doubting and be truthful to yourself, or if not……who cares eh?

Without detailed technical data and experts commision you cant tell if there were really anything to hype about .

Look , as far I am concerned the people who carried out this operation were expert enough to know if something is out of the ordinary. The TV station channel 4 in the UK, is a seriously credible station, anyone from the UK will testify, it is not in their interest to promote God-consciousness (and NEVER do), most of the time they promote the contrary. The UK as a whole is an atheist country, there is not one TV programme where God is favoured, but almost every programme discredit God. On Sunday mornings there is a programme called “My favourite Hymns” (not sure what channel), and that’s as much as you get.

Like Jaxom said if brain was really dead we have proven ressurection ,not reanimation (which is not possible after brain dies) but ressurection . -That can pass as miracle

Argue with the neuro-surgeon, not me.

And it has nothing to do with my ideals (which imho are rather flexibe ) , - I just want to know facts.

Rather flexible?

Here is the doctors site again. Underneath his picture and resume, is a list of his work, which includes details of his method (I think), perhaps you’ll find satisfaction there.
[url]http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/nsg/NSGCPMC/faculty/Solomon.html[/url]

All I was able to find are links and quotes of this experiment on pro NDE sites , online magazines and in some usenet conferences (similar to this one) .

I may be wrong, but I’m sensing you don’t give any credence to NDE sites, at all, yeah or neigh?

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[DarkMadMax]

That is for the eye of the beholder, it has certainly created disturbance in the science community, as they cannot understand how this happened. For the people who have experienced similar phenomenons, it confirms to them that they are not alone.

For "several distrubance" community is rather quiet about this
experiment .

If it doesn't prove existence of subtle body, then how do you account for the testimony of Pam Reynolds?

Testimony of Reynolds imho has very littile weight ,because of direct maniplautaion on her brain , agressive medication and hypothermia.Those things themselves can create "visions", "tunnels" and "bright lights" as proven by reanimatologists , anesthesiologists, neurosurgeons , in research of different drugs and even in experiments on animals. AND "infringments caused by hypothermical effects "(A. Walker "Cerebral Death").

This situation only reinforces the experiences of thousands if not millions and billions of testimonies, maybe it is time to stop doubting and be truthful to yourself, or if not……who cares eh?

Ohhh .Millions ? Or even Billions???? You know a billion of testimonies would probably be enough to start me doubting
Several thousands of stupid unfounded stories is not enough (I can probably write a program that willl compose em ) . I only look at experiments like Dr. Saboms because they at least have some crediblity . But so far I dont see anything special derivating from em .

I am impressed by Pams description , but I would like to see video of operation and her testimony right after she was concsious enough . Because I think she could learn every detail about her operation later (or she had knowledge before) .

To make anything out of it we should have several cases like that with very well documented and verified testimonies and operations course .Then and only then we will be able to compare.

That is relative, you do not know my background or experience, so you have no idea as to whether or not I am being hasty.

I am speaking in general. Its too hasty to make conclusions based only on ONE case .It not a scientific approach .Why we have only one testimony (and mind you all patients in Dr.Sabom's study were believers) out of like 10 (to my knowledge -maybe much more) similar operations?

The info on
[url]http://www.cryonics.org/surgery.html[/URL] has a very similar operation ,and its clear that blood flow trough brain
wasnt stopped completely ! Only trough parts of the brain which were directly manipulated . And in the end of operations there was a dramatic decisions of stopping blood flow trough artery. You know why it was dramatic? Because cortex cells die in only 2-2.5 after blood stops flowing! he risked that there could be irreversible changes in the brain if there were no blood flow.

Look , as far I am concerned the people who carried out this operation were expert enough to know if something is out of the ordinary

Ohh hell, this operation itself is out of ordinary . Many things are out of "ordinary" ,but this only proves that our concept of ordinary is very limited and narrow.

The UK as a whole is an atheist country

Yeah? UK is an atheist country? Last time I checked the majority of their population were christians and they even have the god's teaching in schools.

may be wrong, but I’m sensing you don’t give any credence to NDE sites, at all, yeah or neigh?

I give them no more credence than I give to tabloids ,because of quotes like " and the blood drained from her head" . Thats pure BS imho. If you do that patient will be irreversibly dead in 2- 2.5 minutes .If Dr.Sabom managed the ressurrection he sure as hell should share his divine knowledge with reanimatologists who struggle everyday for those 2 minutes. The distortion of facts like that is unnacceptable if you want to have any crediblity.


And some more FYI about flow and brain death http://www.unifesp.br/dneuro/brd2.htm .

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by DarkMadMax
For "several distrubance" community is rather quiet about this
experiment .

Does that mean there is no disturbance?

Testimony of Reynolds imho has very littile weight ,because of direct maniplautaion on her brain , agressive medication and hypothermia.Those things themselves can create "visions", "tunnels" and "bright lights…

Are those things able to recount conversations which took place, describe the people having them, and able to describe instruments used, which previously had not been seen?

Ohhh .Millions ? Or even Billions???? You know a billion of testimonies would probably be enough to start me doubting

I see, when 1000's of people claim they are starving to death, you start doubting their claims?

Several thousands of stupid unfounded stories is not enough

But what about several thousand not stupid stories which completely change peoples lives, is that enough?

I only look at experiments like Dr. Saboms because they at least have some crediblity . But so far I dont see anything special derivating from em .

That is you, I’m sure the people who have had similar experiences and the people who are just plain interested in the subject, feel differently.

I am impressed by Pams description , but I would like to see video of operation and her testimony right after she was concsious enough .

Her testimony is all over the net, seek and ye shall find.

To make anything out of it we should have several cases like that with very well documented and verified testimonies and operations course .

But to my knowledge we haven’t, so lets make the most of what we have.

Its too hasty to make conclusions based only on ONE case .It not a scientific approach .

The scientific approach is one way, the other way is personal experience.
I’m broadminded enough to accept both, are you?

Ohh hell, this operation itself is out of ordinary . Many things are out of "ordinary" ,but this only proves that our concept of ordinary is very limited and narrow.

That is why it is being looked into scientifically, hopefully they will come up with some answers, but it will take time. But in the meanwhile we must not disregard personal experience, as it is the drive behind the investigation.

Yeah? UK is an atheist country? Last time I checked the majority of their population were christians and they even have the god's teaching in schools.

Sorry, I meant England, and yes it atheistic.

If Dr.Sabom managed the ressurrection he sure as hell should share his divine knowledge with reanimatologists who struggle everyday for those 2 minutes. The distortion of facts like that is unnacceptable if you want to have any crediblity.

Of course there is always the possibility it was a hoax, but I am not in the business of calling people whom I don’t know, liars, unless they confess it, or it is proven beyond reasonable doubt, that kind of arrogance and ignornace, I try my best to steer clear.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Nehushta
Who hasn't had the experience of "knowing" who was on the other end of a ringing phone, with no logical explanation for that knowledge? Haven't you ever been thinking strongly of someone you haven't seen or talked to in a gazillion years - and voila! There they are at your doorstep? Who hasn't at some point in their life been saved from some unfortunate accident by a "warning" that seems to come out of thin air? What mother hasn't had the experience of "knowing" her child was in trouble or needed her, without any external reason to explain that knowledge.

I too have experienced these coincidences. The problem is that the 'failures' are rarely remembered. To be convincing evidence, one would need to track how many times one has thought of that particular person and they did not call. How many times might a mother worry about her child only to find that it was safe and sound compared to that single time it was indeed in trouble? The thing is, the single time is the one that stands out in one's memory.

All scientific tests of psychic ability have led to the conclusion that there is no such thing. Statistically, it just doesn't work out. In fact, in many cases the 'psychic' has performed worse than expected.

The other thing that I think is often neglected is that our minds are more perceptive than we consciously realize. Picking up hints and clues of things that we do not consciously process yet accumulate in the 'subconscious' mind and give us a 'feeling' about something. Just ask anyone who discovered that their spouse was cheating on them. Often, in retrospect, there were obvious indicators that were simply not focused upon or correlated.

~Raithere

 

[DarkMadMax]

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Does that mean there is no disturbance?

Imho yes . I wasnt even able to find any reference or quote about Sabom's experiment in specialized medical portal .

Are those things able to recount conversations which took place, describe the people having them, and able to describe instruments used, which previously had not been seen?

No , but other thing can .Like she saw whole operations on a video ,she learned about this operation ,she knew it before ,someone told her all details. Certainly possible isn't it?
I highly doubt that she could hear (her brain was almost completlety disabled ) ,but I couldnt throw it from accounts as well .Did you read the info on the link I gave you ? Point is that even when synaptic activity is not registered (I'll stress this - not registered doesn't mean it does not exist) brain techinically is not dead and even able to perform some activity . Did you know that some ppl qualified as "brain dead" and used as donors ,were not quite that dead and manifested pain and some almost conscious actions? that only prove that some imperfection still exist in diagnotics of cerebral death.

see, when 1000's of people claim they are starving to death, you start doubting their claims?

??? If I see 1000's of stories (like on NDE sites) claiming about ppl starving to death without any actual proof ,of course I will doubt it . If I doubt something I need evidence to convince me ,not another baseless claim. Claims can serve as indirect indicaton of something happening , but in no way as a proof.

And BTW there are thousands of ppl claiming all kind of things (of being god ,being abducted by aliens , observing divine miracles ,etc.. etc...) /sarcasm on How you do not believe all of them? /sarcasm off

That is you, I’m sure the people who have had similar experiences and the people who are just plain interested in the subject, feel differently.

So I don't qualify as one who is interested in subject if I spend time to find scientific explanations and solid basis for explaining their experiences?

Her testimony is all over the net, seek and ye shall find.

Again , my point is that as far as I am aware there is NO PROOF that her testimony is authentic ,that she didnt see whole operation on video ,that someone watching didnt told her evertyhing in details ,there was a lot of ppl in operating room ,moreover I am sure whole process was filmed , the operation's course wasnt some sort of secret.

Of course there is always the possibility it was a hoax, but I am not in the business of calling people whom I don’t know, liars, unless they confess it, or it is proven beyond reasonable doubt, that kind of arrogance and ignornace, I try my best to steer clear.

Please don't intepret my words wrongly .I didn't call Dr. Sabom a liar , I expressed my opinion that the NDE site with description is not more competent then tabloid ,because of their ignorant and misleading quotes . And I despise the ppl who misquote authorities and then hide behind their backs snarling with accusations of blasphemy ,ignorance and arrogance.

If Dr.Sabom can prove that there is no way Pam could obtain information about operations course before she made her first testimony ,and all this is documented ,then i think this can serve as something . So far I didnt see anywhere about precautions taken agins Pam getting this information ,about her first testimony documented ,about any expert commison proving authencity . All we have are claims, nothing more . And while I am in no way want to call anybody a liar (their cliams could be true) I dont accept it as a proof of anyting ,because there is no evidence and documental confirmations .

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by DarkMadMax
Imho yes . I wasnt even able to find any reference or quote about Sabom's experiment in specialized medical portal .

That doesn’t mean there is no disturbance, it just means it is not in a magazine.

No , but other thing can .Like she saw whole operations on a video ,she learned about this operation ,she knew it before ,someone told her all details. Certainly possible isn't it?

Yes it is.
2 points;
1) I am sure it would have been mentioned by the doctor if this was the case.
2) She didn’t mention she had.

I highly doubt that she could hear (her brain was almost completlety disabled ) ,but I couldnt throw it from accounts as well .Did you read the info on the link I gave you ? Point is that even when synaptic activity is not registered (I'll stress this - not registered doesn't mean it does not exist) brain techinically is not dead and even able to perform some activity . Did you know that some ppl qualified as "brain dead" and used as donors ,were not quite that dead and manifested pain and some almost conscious actions? that only prove that some imperfection still exist in diagnotics of cerebral death.

If that was the case, then the surgeon would know that there was some chance she may have heard and would add that to his investigation., but he was completely baffled and stated that he had no explanation whatsoever as to what happened.

And BTW there are thousands of ppl claiming all kind of things (of being god ,being abducted by aliens , observing divine miracles ,etc.. etc...) /sarcasm on How you do not believe all of them? /sarcasm off

In this case, it is not a matter of belief, unblocked experts are baffled, the only conclusion they can come up with at the moment is that the mind/soul is somehow separate from the gross body. They don’t want to believe it, because it goes against all current scientific theory, but they are forced to accept that it may be a possiblity, and unless they can come up with a physical answer, then that remains a fact.

I expressed my opinion that the NDE site with description is not more competent then tabloid ,because of their ignorant and misleading quotes .

That is your opinion,

And I despise the ppl who misquote authorities and then hide behind their backs snarling with accusations of blasphemy ,ignorance and arrogance.

And while I am in no way want to call anybody a liar (their cliams could be true) I dont accept it as a proof of anyting ,because there is no evidence and documental confirmations .

If it was found she knew nothing of the instruments, was heavily sedated before going into theatre, had no previous experience of how to perform a hypothermic cardiac arrest operation, would you believe that the soul or mind is separate from the brain insofar as it lives after the death of brain?

Please, a simple yes or no will suffice.

Love

Jan Ardena.