Does God, psychic abilities exist? (Again..)

M

man_of_jade

Psychic person
Registered Senior Member
So, does he? im gonna start this off with a scientific way of observing or something...
We can observe ten thousand mice and say since they have only one tail each, that mice cannot have more than one tail. However, one day we may observe a mouse with two tails, and then the theory of one tail per mouse would be disproved.
In the same way, we have observed little, if any proof that God and psychic abilities exists. However, something may happen someday, irrefutable evidence that God and these abilities DO exist, therefore we cannot say for sure that these two things dont exist for sure:)
 
One billion mice

we could say they are both very improbable. as improbability increases you are more tempted to just go with impossible.

as for the god thing. sure if there is a god and Pat decided to come down and once and for all prove that Pat exist and show us what the one true religion is(i'm sorry the correct answer is mormon). but i doubt that will happen:( so i doubt there will be a "two-tailed mouse" day for god. but maybe.

i'm actually more doubtful about the psyhic abilities. I mean if someone were really psychic they could prove it easily. so why hasn't anybody? given that there are millions and millions of people and some percentage may be psychic there's plenty of chances for observation of a real psychic. oh and vague preditions don't count. give me something like the box score of the 2003 World Series Game 2. that would be plenty.

so yeah i guess you can't really say 100% they don't exist. only 99.999%. but as stated in the math forum, sometimes 99.999=100.
 
A few nights ago on channel 4, a UK tv channel, there was a programme about NDE's.
Apparently there is a very serious study of this phenomena being undertaken by some of the worlds foremost neural scientists.
The typical belief among the comminity is that everything that occurs, occours within the brain, that the brain stores our consciousness, and that when the brain ceases there can be no activity. It is therefore understood that what is occuring during these experiences is that for sometime after the death of brain, electricity is still apparent, which fires up the memory and also stimulates a part of the brain that deals with euphoria, therefore playing out scences making the person think they're really having a mystical experience. So the study is to see if the mind lives on beyond the brain.
There was a lady who had a very serious condition of the brain, i do not remember the name of the condition, but basically what was happening was, there was some fluid inside her brain whic was not good, the location was right in the centre near the base. To get to this part of the brain, they first had to shut down all the neural activity, or in other words stop the brain from functioning completely. So you can imagine the stringent monitoring of the condition of the patient and the level of the neuro-surgeons involved.

When the woman was put into this condition, they covered her entire body with surgical sheets except the particular part of the head which was being cut open. The specialized surgical instruments used for such an undertaking, were sealed in there air tight packages until the very moment they were needed.
Under this condition it was quite obvious that the woman was what we term as dead.

To cut a long story short, when she became conscious, after they had operated, they were completely baffled has to how she, not only gave accurate descriptions of the physical position of each of the surgical team, but recited a converstion, extremely accurately, which took place between the surgeon and one of his staff while operating. She also descibed the instrument that the doctor used to probe deep into her unconnected brain.

The surgeon, i forget his name, is one of the foremost neuro guys in the world, he was baffled, so baffled he has started to do research into this. He says he has no explanation for what he experienced.

This may be slightly off topic, but spiritual life begins with the understanding that you are separate from your physical body, if we are, then the existence of God or pyschic abilities must be a possibility, wouldn't you say?

I humbly appologise for such a long response, but i felt i needed to give some background.

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Originally posted by sycoindian
is there an article or a source on that story? it sounds interesting..
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Unfortunately there is not, as i cannot remember the name of the programme. I wrote down some of the names of the eminent scientists on a peice of paper next to me, but i cannot find it. Hopefully some other UK resident who posts here, may have seen it.

I will continue to look and if i find, i will post.

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
man_of_jade,

Psychic ability not only exists, it is being put to practical use in areas such as crime solving.

Jan,

Thanks for the article. There have been too many sightings of two-tailed mice in this arena to ignore the probability that there is existence beyond the physical.
 
Well, I'm guessing that if in the bible Jesus walked on water, psychic abilities probably do exist, but just not in the large percentage that it seems they do exist.
 
thanks for the link Jan ardena!
hmm... any skeptics/Athiests want to try debate that?
(cough(Q)coughJamesRcoughCriscough)
 
Psychic abilities definitely exist...

...I once knew a guy back in the 70's who could read minds - and he was very good at it. No, it wasn't a parlor trick - he really could do it.

My best friend is also rather talented in the psychic arena, but in a different way. The weekend prior to 9/11 - whether it was Saturday or Sunday evening, I don't recall for certain - we were sitting in her motorhome talking, and she kept saying, "Don't you feel the earth just trembling? Something really big is about to happen - I can just feel it." I couldn't feel anything of the sort. She wasn't certain what it was, but she did mention the possibility of a terrorist attack. Later that same evening, we were standing in her kitchen and I could smell the distinct odor of licorice very strongly, but she couldn't. There was no licorice anywhere in the house. We both knew then that something was up, but she was agitated enough to take her daughter and grandson (who also happen to be my daughter-in-law and grandson) to a town about 4 hours north of where we live. I didn't even know that she had left until the morning of 9/11 when I called her to let her know what happened, and her husband answered and told me that she had left town the day before. Not that leaving town helped one way or another, since we live in California - but she was tuned in enough to know that something really dreadful was about to happen. I'm not sure why I got the odor of licorice, but I'm guessing that the terrorists might have sat around drinking Ouzo the weekend prior to 9/11 (which is basically a licorice liquor that seems to be a favorite among Arab men).

Also, 14 months before 9/11, I had a dream that was almost exactly like what happened. I remember it was 14 months before, because I had the dream a couple of days before the Concorde crashed back in July of 2000, and at that time wondered if there was some sort of connection. In my dream, I was watching a plane that had apparently just taken off, because of the angle at which it was moving. It was still almost close enough for me to see the name of the airline written on the side of the plane - but not quite. As I watched it though, it did nearly a 180 degree turn, and started heading downward. At first I was horrified, thinking that the plane was going to crash; but as I watched, the plane morphed into a missile, and I was even more horrified as I began to realize that this was some sort of attack on our country. Then I looked up in the sky and saw a number of missiles, and fully understood at that point that our country was under attack. At the end of the dream, I heard everyone around me screaming, and then I woke up.

I have had many such psychic moments and dreams throughout my life, but it isn't something I typically call up at will, nor would I want to turn it into a side show even if I could. My friend is much better at calling it up at will than I am, but she doesn't make a side show out of it either. Psychic gifts are of a spiritual nature, and that's something you just don't prostitute - and if you did, it would probably leave you anyway. At any rate, it would be a tough thing to prove to skeptics, since it's something that has to be personally experienced to be believed and it is unlikely that a skeptic will ever experience it (since they aren't open to such an experience in the first place).
 
You know guys there is a 1 million dollar prize for all those would be "mind readers" , "saints" etc.....

The biggest problem with those "evidences" is that they are smart mistification at best , at worst case it is unfounded rumors and hyped lies , those lies are repeated so many times that for ordinary Philistine they become true (old proverbial lie that becomes trrue if repeated enough times).
 
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If i had strong enough abilities to do the test by James Randi, i would. I just dont nearly have enough control over them or strength of them yet to really prove i have 'em lol
 
The article consisted mostly of the woman's recollection of her experience, and not on the procedure, particularly of the "shut down" of the brain, which actually consists of lowering the temperature so that minimal oxygen was needed by the brain to survive for 30 minutes or so, while the blood is drained to operate on those vessels. The brain is not dead, just in suspeded animation. But the implication left by the article is that if we cannot detect life in the brain through the few methods we have, it must be dead, and anyone revived from this point was truly dead from the body, and must have gone elsewhere. Had she not had these visions, there would not have been a big deal made about the fact that she was dead and didn't see anything. Am I discounting what she saw, no...but neither is it hard evidence of afterlife. The links to the actual procedure refer to it as near death, or cheating death, and don't mention other patients that had similar experiences. Maybe only theists have HDE? :rolleyes:

Similarly are the accounts of psychic predictions. I don't recall anyone posting anywhere anything before 9-11 about their terrible dreams of planes flying into buildings, or recently about how they had a bad feeling as they saw the shuttle launch that day. Why? Because if such a feeling or dream occurs, and nothing connects, it is forgotten. We as humans have this often...only when there is a connection made do we tie a significance to it. Our brains are hard wired to detect patterns like this, for survival's sake, and it can often mislead us easily to believe in things such as faces of Mars, prophesies, numerology and astrology.

Is there an untapped mental ability that science is unaware of yet? Sure it's possible...but you'd think that if it was as possible as protrayed, somewhere along the line someone could provide hard evidence to make it much more credible than it is. I know if I could demonstrate some unusual power I'd be trying my hand at that $1 million.
 
in my life i've watched hundreds of baseball games. and a couple of times I've predicted homeruns.

i guess that makes me pyschic:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Jaxom
The brain is not dead, just in suspeded animation.

Not according to the experts, people who know what they are talking about. ;)

Had she not had these visions, there would not have been a big deal made about the fact that she was dead and didn't see anything.

Lucky for us she had the visions, eh! :D

Am I discounting what she saw, no...but neither is it hard evidence of afterlife.

But how can you discount the verdict of the unbiased experts?
If she was indeed dead, as expert eye witnesses agreed, then it is hard evidence of afterlife. If it wasn't they wouldn't waste their time investigating it, would they? :rolleyes:

You cannot dispute the evidence.

The links to the actual procedure refer to it as near death, or cheating death,

It doesn't matter what you term it, the experience still stands, and made more credible by the fact that it was carried out under strict scientific conditions. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.
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Not according to the experts, people who know what they are talking about.
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The only "expert" I see is a single cardiologist (NOT neurosurgeon) . Thats not enough ,and cannot even pretend to be an expertise.

You cannot dispute the evidence.
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I find this "evidence " doubtful at best.

It doesn't matter what you term it, the experience still stands, and made more credible by the fact that it was carried out under strict scientific conditions.
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"strict scientific conditions" requires a bit more than link on pro NDE site with a lot of stories and a couple of names . No detailed descriptions of operation's course ,no technical data ,no measurements, no encephalograms ,no nothing...

I am not neurosurgeon (nor I am an MD) , but if you provide with links on real data on this operation I would try to find some proffesional opinion about this .

Also I would be more convinced if you could find the infomration about this experiment in a notable medical journal or conference of proffesionals in this domain.
 
Definitely an interesting article Jan. Thanks.

It doesn't matter what you term it, the experience still stands, and made more credible by the fact that it was carried out under strict scientific conditions
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This a somewhat accurate statement but is a bit misleading. This procedure was not carried out under the rigor that a scientific experiment would demand. While very interesting in itself a true experiment testing for NDE would not rely purely upon people's recollections of what occurred but would be very specific and probably recorded. The article, unfortunately, never really specifies which portions of her NDE were accurate and to what extent or if, perhaps, the surgery was recorded as they sometimes are. While the incident is definitely intriguing and warrants further study it can hardly be construed as 'proof' of Life after Death.

~Raithere
 
Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Originally posted by Jaxom
The brain is not dead, just in suspeded animation.

Not according to the experts, people who know what they are talking about. ;)
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Jan, I was just going by the link off that same article, to here:

http://www.cryonics.org/surgery.html

Which indeed stated that it was suspended animation, and not death. I would carefully but most likely assume that they are quite the experts, being they are doing the procedures themselves.

So no, the brain is not dead, even if it is flatlined. Otherwise we have much more than a NDE, we have proven resurrection, which is hardly the case.
 
Originally posted by DarkMadMax
The only "expert" I see is a single cardiologist (NOT neurosurgeon) . Thats not enough ,and cannot even pretend to be an expertise.

Wrong!

Quote;

She was referred to a doctor who had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as "hypothermic cardiac arrest." It allowed Pam's aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success.

Of the many neurosurgeons in the United States and Canada who were reached, only Dr. Solomon would take the case. "Without being able to stop the circulation, I wouldn't even have tried," Dr. Solomon said. "But it's hard to say no when you see a 24 year old dying in front of your eyes, and I have been delighted with our results so far."

The name of this Doctor was, Dr. Robert A. Solomon, Chairman and Director of Service, Dept. of Neurosurgery.

http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/nsg/NSGCPMC/faculty/Solomon.html

Special Interests: cerebral aneurysms: special expertise in giant aneurysms with selective use of deep hypothermic circulatory arrest;
arteriovenous malformations of the brain;
carotid artery disease

I find this "evidence " doubtful at best.

That’s your opinion.

"strict scientific conditions" requires a bit more than link on pro NDE site with a lot of stories and a couple of names . No detailed descriptions of operation's course

You’re missing the point, something out of the ordinary happened, and I think the experts involved are sensible and rational to know that. It is silly to to doubt something because it does not agree with your ideals.

I am not neurosurgeon (nor I am an MD) , but if you provide with links on real data on this operation I would try to find some proffesional opinion about this .

Also I would be more convinced if you could find the infomration about this experiment in a notable medical journal or conference of proffesionals in this domain.

I am quite sure if you look hard enough you will find these sites or book references, as for me, it only confirms a reality told by many people throughout the world and throughout time. ;)

Love

Jan Ardena.
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Originally posted by Raithere
Definitely an interesting article Jan. Thanks.

You are most welcome. :)

This procedure was not carried out under the rigor that a scientific experiment would demand.

Maybe not, but it was strict enough to warrant an investigation.
It is a start.

The article, unfortunately, never really specifies which portions of her NDE were accurate and to what extent or if, perhaps, the surgery was recorded as they sometimes are.

You are right, it is most unfortunate, but as stated before it coincides with TV programme which was dedicated to NDE's.

While the incident is definitely intriguing and warrants further study it can hardly be construed as 'proof' of Life after Death.

I think that is a matter of opinion, but in the cold light of modern science, i take your point.

Love

Jan Ardena.
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