"Does God exist?" etc. are useless questions

[Emil]

Oh. This reasoning is leaving God out of the equation, as if God had nothing to do with whether people believe in Him or not. How can you be so sure of that??

I can not explain it otherwise the geographical distribution of religions.


GEOGRAPHICAL DISTRIBUTION OF MAJOR WORLD RELIGIONS

Also, if God exists and if he wants, then for him is very easy to make a fact of his existence.
If this does not happen, it means or God does not exist or he does not want to be known, in which case we must respect his wishes.
If different religions are God's will, after which he makes believers to kill each other in the name of God, then he is a psychopath schizophrenic with multiple personalities and we're f*ed.

 

[wellwisher]

It is not so much the message of the various religions, but the interpretation and the proportions used which causes social problems. One can find a pet quote in any religious work and base the entire message on that. This is called the doctrines of men, which are the root of most discord.

For example, if you look at the Koran, the holy war is mentioned, but this is not 51% of the Koran's data. Some people will attempt to weigh that one data point, out of proportion, to create the illusion it is 95%.

A good scientists is not suppose to accept only the data that flatters your ego or gives you social leverage, while ignoring the rest. Rather one is suppose use all the data and try to find the average. Most people into religion are not violent, since the know how to average.

Let us apply this doctrine of man technique to science. Rather than base our theory on the majority of the data, let us use the one exception to the rule as the way to define a natural law. That theory may leave the realm of natural laws and drift off into unnatural laws.

 

[Yazata]

It looks like you have a lot of implicit faith that God does not mind your extensive inquiry and welcomes your efforts toward Him / the Truth, whatever these efforts might be.
I have lost that optimism long ago.

In the context of this thread, that looks like a non-sequitur. It doesn't seem to have much to do with the provocative assertions that you've made in your earlier posts.

Let's review some of them:

1. "Does God exist?" etc. are useless questions"

Why do you believe that it's "useless" to ask whether God exists or to ask another individual whether he/she believes in God?

(The logical positivists made similar assertions about the uselessness of theological questions, based on their theories of meaning, but I strongly sense that your motivations are different than theirs.)

2. "Now consider:
Who is in the position to meaningfully ask them of another person?"

What sort of "position" do you believe that somebody must occupy in order to "meaningfully" consider the question of God's existence or to ask others what they think about it?

3. Except that when it comes to discussing God, given the way "God" is usually defined (as omnimax), then the one who doesn't have proper knowledge of God is left to the mercy of those who (claim to) do.

"Left to the mercy" in what way? That needs to be explained.

4. Basically, theistic discussion is an infinitely unfair one.
The theist potentially has infinite power over the non-theist. How this plays out in actual communication is just one aspect of it.

I'm clearly not understanding the point you're trying to make there. (But I do have to tell you that your assertion sounds a little grandiose.) What kind of "infinite power" do you claim theists have over lesser people (like me)? Power to accomplish what precisely?

If you are not afraid of eternal damnation, then I'm not sure how to explain things to you.

No, I'm not afraid of eternal damnation.

But what does my lack of fear of eternal damnation have to do with the seemingly unrelated series of assertions that you've been making in this thread?

Presumably you have some line of thinking going in your head, something that ties everything together, but so far your posts have been too disjointed and cryptic to clearly communicate what it is, at least to me. Maybe others are having better luck.

 

[wynn]

Would you mind giving is a basic summary of your belief system Signal?

I don't have such a belief system that I could outline it, I yet have to come to such a belief system.
I am open to all kinds of possibilites - and I suppose this is where my problem is.

 

[wynn]

In the context of this thread, that looks like a non-sequitur. It doesn't seem to have much to do with the provocative assertions that you've made in your earlier posts.

Like I said, I think you have implicit faith in your reasoning about theistic matters.
I have been around for a while, and the one thing that theists surely have managed to do is to wipe that smile off my face.
You might end up bitter and confused like myself as well!

1. "Does God exist?" etc. are useless questions"

Why do you believe that it's "useless" to ask whether God exists or to ask another individual whether he/she believes in God?

I gave examples of situations where the question may come up, the people being:
Christian proselytizer in the street; poster on an internet forum; philosophy teacher in class; friends and family; one's boss; one's enemy; the seeker.

Of course, this list is mostly just about types/groups of people (so with "Christian proselytizer in the street", there is also the "JW in the street", "Mormons at your door" etc.; akin to one's boss is any similar situation with someone who is higher up in the hierarchy than ourselves; etc.).

What conversation, for example, can be had with a Christian proselytizer who stops you in the street? My experience is that there can be none. They insist in their way of approaching a topic, they might ask questions like "Do you believe in God?", but there is no room to actually discuss what the terms mean to each party. (I thought this was obvious.)

Further -

2. "Now consider:
Who is in the position to meaningfully ask them of another person?"

What sort of "position" do you believe that somebody must occupy in order to "meaningfully" consider the question of God's existence or to ask others what they think about it?

Do you think that, for example, when a Christian proselytizer who stops you in the street to tell you about Jesus and the Gospel, really cares about whether you believe in God and what the words in the question mean to you? Do you think that your reasoning about theistic matters will significantly improve if you talk to such a proselytizer?
Or is he there to shove his message down your throat and say you will burn in hell for all eternity if you don't do as he says?

3. Except that when it comes to discussing God, given the way "God" is usually defined (as omnimax), then the one who doesn't have proper knowledge of God is left to the mercy of those who (claim to) do.

"Left to the mercy" in what way? That needs to be explained.

4. Basically, theistic discussion is an infinitely unfair one.
The theist potentially has infinite power over the non-theist. How this plays out in actual communication is just one aspect of it.

I'm clearly not understanding the point you're trying to make there. (But I do have to tell you that your assertion sounds a little grandiose.) What kind of "infinite power" do you claim theists have over lesser people (like me)? Power to accomplish what precisely?

If you agree that you do not have sufficient knowledge of God, then you are, simply logically, vulnerable to anyone who might have such knowledge.

If you agree that you do not have sufficient knowledge of God, then you have to accept that things that might seem strange to you might be true about God.
But since if you agree that you do not have sufficient knowledge of God, then you don't know what that knowledge is and who has it, or not.
In this sense, you are left at the mercy of those who do have such knowledge, and they can use your ignorance/lack of knowledge against you, and you cannot prevent it.

But what does my lack of fear of eternal damnation have to do with the seemingly unrelated series of assertions that you've been making in this thread?

Everything, this fear is what drives one's inquiry, or at least puts an end to it at some point.

Presumably you have some line of thinking going in your head, something that ties everything together, but so far your posts have been too disjointed and cryptic to clearly communicate what it is, at least to me. Maybe others are having better luck.

I am sorry. I wish I could have a definitive stance.

 

[jayleew]

These really are useless questions. I don't care anymore.

I used to be a devout Christian. Something happened yesterday that I found interesting. My family was caught up in the middle of two other family's bad blood. They were just treating us poorly because we didn't choose sides. When dealing with this, I thought back...and had the urge...to pray that God would help. OMG, how useless that has been in the past!!!

I think back to the many years I did that, and I just had faith that because I prayed then everything would be alright because God had the ball. I was just to do my Christian part and pray and love the folks and help them when they asked.

Since then I've not given it much thought until yesterday about how distant God is from my life and how much it is improved with dealing with life. Taking on problems directly is so much more rewarding and effective than relying on God to do anything. Why worry about something and pray, when you can quit wasting time and just fix the problem.

It makes me think, if God exists, why is this so? Why is it more effective to do things myself than to rely on God? If it's supposed to be that way, then why do I need God?

If believers stopped working in the name of God (who does nothing for itself or anyone), then God would cease to exist completely.

 

[Adstar]

And this absolute surety is at what point?
When one realizes that one's heart has stopped beating because it is cut apart by the knife plunged into one's chest by the supposed theist?

False, emotive, accusational rant.....


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wynn]

False, emotive, accusational rant.....

And if I don't believe you I will burn in hell for all eternity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[wynn]

These really are useless questions. I don't care anymore.

I used to be a devout Christian. Something happened yesterday that I found interesting. My family was caught up in the middle of two other family's bad blood. They were just treating us poorly because we didn't choose sides. When dealing with this, I thought back...and had the urge...to pray that God would help. OMG, how useless that has been in the past!!!

I think back to the many years I did that, and I just had faith that because I prayed then everything would be alright because God had the ball. I was just to do my Christian part and pray and love the folks and help them when they asked.

Since then I've not given it much thought until yesterday about how distant God is from my life and how much it is improved with dealing with life. Taking on problems directly is so much more rewarding and effective than relying on God to do anything. Why worry about something and pray, when you can quit wasting time and just fix the problem.

It makes me think, if God exists, why is this so? Why is it more effective to do things myself than to rely on God? If it's supposed to be that way, then why do I need God?

If believers stopped working in the name of God (who does nothing for itself or anyone), then God would cease to exist completely.

It seems that in your "religious times", you were what is sometimes termed a "religious addict" (google it!!).

What you seem to be distancing yourself from now is your "religious addiction".

I think it is prudent to learn the difference between "religious addiction" and "healthy religiosity".
There are many religious/theistic resources on this.
This for your own sake, so that you can get better closure on what exactly it is that you are leaving behind, and also to help you deal with both theists and atheists.