Does God ever use people to achieve His goals?

Absolutely, in fact I think this is what they are saying with 'surrender' as a goal. In a sense I am arguing from incredulity in a context where most religions hold that God is good (or even great) and also loving.

Some other contexts for the surrender philosophy are:
- everyone knows God anyway; in your current state, you know God, but merely pretend not to know Him, so all you need to do is be hoonest and you can surrender to God;
- you are bad, therefore, you need to surrender to that which is good.



Technically, there is also what I would call "placeholder surrender" or "placeholder God": in this case, surrender and God needn't be further defined or understood, but function as abstractions and moving goalposts, placeholders that the person fills in as their spirituality develops.

It's a bit like in 12-Step philosophy: One surrenders one's problems to the Higher Power, without having much clue what this Higher Power is - but simply the concept of "higher power" is such that it warrants that one's problems be surrendered to it.


I am sure some would say that it is we who are at war and that the best metaphor for us is to stop being at war. But that is a cruel evaluation, especially as it is universalized. Not that I can demonstrate this to people without insight or empathy.

What do you find cruel about it?


who I am I to know what force i am to surrender to? If I am a being who must surrender, it seems by definition, that I do not have the wherewithal or goodness to make the right choice of what to surrender to. In my sinful, ignorant state, it seems just as likely I would end up surrendering to Satan.

Exactly.
 
Some other contexts for the surrender philosophy are:
- everyone knows God anyway; in your current state, you know God, but merely pretend not to know Him, so all you need to do is be honest and you can surrender to God;
- you are bad, therefore, you need to surrender to that which is good.
I think actually your example of the angry Muslim is nor far off an underlying reaction many religious people and leaders have when someone has 'negative' emotional reactions and 'negative' cognitive reactions to events or people. We are told implicitly or explicitly to go with the flow, not judge, see the lesson in it, see it as a trial or test sent from God, and so on. IOW our resistence is the problem, not the unpleasant event or person. Often the word 'surrender' is not used in the context, but the underlying critique of we who do not get it is the same and I think their is a connection to the surrender concept.

Technically, there is also what I would call "placeholder surrender" or "placeholder God": in this case, surrender and God needn't be further defined or understood, but function as abstractions and moving goalposts, placeholders that the person fills in as their spirituality develops.
Good point and one I think you emphasize with good reason. The mystification of this, clearly important, concept is very damaging. The individual then gropes their way to some kind of solution - since often they are to some degree shunned if they display their ignorance - and this solution may be even more damaging than how others interpret this 'rule'. In addition there is always some uneasiness. And in addition to that, since there is no clear bench mark, one can always feel one did not surrender enough. Once again showing how little psychological insight those who accept God miraculously also show despite their 'goodness'.

I also notice that a lot of people get empowered by their sense of having surrendered. And in unsavory ways.

It's a bit like in 12-Step philosophy: One surrenders one's problems to the Higher Power, without having much clue what this Higher Power is - but simply the concept of "higher power" is such that it warrants that one's problems be surrendered to it.
I am more positive about this one. It has generally not worked for me, but there have been moments when I passed on a problem and it felt good. It felt like an act of stopping torturing myself. The honest statement that I don't know how to do X, am confused and feel helpless and asking for help - even without a clear sense of whom I am asking - has felt good to me. I cannot make this a regular practice, but on occasion it has felt right and a relief to me. I am not giving myself and my will over to something and letting it have power over me, but making, essentially a plea for help that reflects more accurately my experience. Walking around feeling I should be doing better and blaming myself as if I feel like I am in control - but just not being disciplined enough or whatever - has been more like a lie. I recognize the parallel epistemological issue, but for me, this hasn't felt abusive.

What do you find cruel about it?
In extreme
examples telling some teenager who has been systematically sexually abused and has problems that they need to surrender to God - with the implicit judgment that their problems are caused by their battling God - is to repeat their abuse, in many cases if not all, by put it on a spiritual plane.

You are the one doing something wrong. You need to open up your boundaries and let God in.

When, of course, any remotely intelligent God would understand that this kid understandably may wonder how sane or loving God is given what he or she experienced.

I think the pattern of abuse in the suggestion is the same in less obvious cases.
 
I think actually your example of the angry Muslim is nor far off an underlying reaction many religious people and leaders have when someone has 'negative' emotional reactions and 'negative' cognitive reactions to events or people. We are told implicitly or explicitly to go with the flow, not judge, see the lesson in it, see it as a trial or test sent from God, and so on. IOW our resistence is the problem, not the unpleasant event or person. Often the word 'surrender' is not used in the context, but the underlying critique of we who do not get it is the same and I think their is a connection to the surrender concept.

Sure.


Good point and one I think you emphasize with good reason. The mystification of this, clearly important, concept is very damaging. The individual then gropes their way to some kind of solution - since often they are to some degree shunned if they display their ignorance - and this solution may be even more damaging than how others interpret this 'rule'. In addition there is always some uneasiness. And in addition to that, since there is no clear bench mark, one can always feel one did not surrender enough. Once again showing how little psychological insight those who accept God miraculously also show despite their 'goodness'.

I also notice that a lot of people get empowered by their sense of having surrendered. And in unsavory ways.

Yes, the idea of a "placeholder surrender" or "placeholder God" can go in many ways.
For some people, it is a source of (yet more) misery.
For others, it is a source of pride and confidence.


I am more positive about this one. It has generally not worked for me, but there have been moments when I passed on a problem and it felt good. It felt like an act of stopping torturing myself. The honest statement that I don't know how to do X, am confused and feel helpless and asking for help - even without a clear sense of whom I am asking - has felt good to me. I cannot make this a regular practice, but on occasion it has felt right and a relief to me. I am not giving myself and my will over to something and letting it have power over me, but making, essentially a plea for help that reflects more accurately my experience. Walking around feeling I should be doing better and blaming myself as if I feel like I am in control - but just not being disciplined enough or whatever - has been more like a lie. I recognize the parallel epistemological issue, but for me, this hasn't felt abusive.

Matching up belief in God or a Higher Power and the fact that one has difficulties sooner or later leads one to become aware of the problem of theodicy:

"I shall give my problems over to the Higher Power. ... In order to do so, I have to believe that the Higher Power is good, willing and able to take over my problems. ... But if the Higher Power is good, willing and able to take over my problems - then why do I have those problems in the first place? Why hasn't this Higher Power, who is good, willing and able to take over my problems, prevented me from having problems? ... It must be that I am a bad person, or there is no Higher Power, or the Higher Power is evil or powerless or disinterested."


This is why I think that the 12-step philosophy cannot work, at least not in the long run.
It delivers one to the doorstep of theodicy - and leaves one there.


In extreme
examples telling some teenager who has been systematically sexually abused and has problems that they need to surrender to God - with the implicit judgment that their problems are caused by their battling God - is to repeat their abuse, in many cases if not all, by put it on a spiritual plane.

While I think this may actually be an accurate explanation of how the abuse and the feelings, thoughts and practical consequences have come about - namely, that the victim had battled God - I do not think it is accurate to talk to a victim this way.

There is a good article on this topic: New Age Bullies (and a blog with responses to it).


I think the pattern of abuse in the suggestion is the same in less obvious cases.

Of course. There even seems to be a silent agreement on how much of this abuse we are supposed to tolerate, and the limits are pushed higher and higher, expetcing us to tolerate more and more.
 
This has come up in another thread, and I want to give it proper exposure:




Does God ever use people to achieve His goals?


Is a guru someone who is used by God to achieve His goals?

If, for example, an angry Muslim attacks you for being a kafir: How do you know it is not God using this angry Muslim to achieve His goal?


Why surrender to the guru, but not to the angry Muslim?

because first I will surrender all intelligence to my wild imagined God
 
Yes, the idea of a "placeholder surrender" or "placeholder God" can go in many ways.
For some people, it is a source of (yet more) misery.
For others, it is a source of pride and confidence.
yes.


Matching up belief in God or a Higher Power and the fact that one has difficulties sooner or later leads one to become aware of the problem of theodicy:

"I shall give my problems over to the Higher Power. ... In order to do so, I have to believe that the Higher Power is good, willing and able to take over my problems. ... But if the Higher Power is good, willing and able to take over my problems - then why do I have those problems in the first place? Why hasn't this Higher Power, who is good, willing and able to take over my problems, prevented me from having problems? ... It must be that I am a bad person, or there is no Higher Power, or the Higher Power is evil or powerless or disinterested."
I do think there is a way out of this conundrum, but actually it is not how I conceive of the act of saying I cannot solve this. It is an honest expression of how I feel. It may or may not be literally true. Perhaps I can, eventually or right away if I change approach, solve the problem, but I feel like I can't. I am being honest to myself and potentially God and this act can shift things.

I also think it differs from the surrender to God, just go with the flow kinds of religious judgments out there. I am not demanding I feel OK about what is happening. It is another kind of act.


This is why I think that the 12-step philosophy cannot work, at least not in the long run.
It delivers one to the doorstep of theodicy - and leaves one there.
*Well, it does seem to work for some. At least around their goals. It does not work as a system for me.

While I think this may actually be an accurate explanation of how the abuse and the feelings, thoughts and practical consequences have come about - namely, that the victim had battled God - I do not think it is accurate to talk to a victim this way.
I would tend to assume it is not how it came about. And I agree about the communication.

There is a good article on this topic: New Age Bullies (and a blog with responses to it).
Yeah, the new age really refined victim blaming and silencing to a smiling, calm, surgical art form.
 
I've said this before in a prior incarnation. You dislike the implications and the idea, so I don't want to repeat it.

Are you referring to the idea that God makes mistakes or is not omnimax?

Indeed, I dislike that idea. But how much do you dislike my dislike of that idea?

;)


To quote Gustav -


Gustav said:
this is how sci is a cut above the rest
we encourage civic participation
we value honesty and transparency
everything is kept above board
mistakes are fearlessly acknowledged
lessons are unashamedly learned

it how we roll
its who we are
long live sci!
 
Are you referring to the idea that God makes mistakes or is not omnimax?

Indeed, I dislike that idea. But how much do you dislike my dislike of that idea?
I don't dislike your dislike. I may have when I first encountered it, though likely it was more of an 'oh, well'. For me it is a practical issue. I do want to mention, in this context, that I think there are other options there, if we reach that point, and at the same time I see no point in going into it again.

Note: that's not really the idea. Or it is sort of a part of it but not quite.



To quote Gustav -
I'm not quite sure how to apply Gustav's quote here. If you/he mean its OK to say what you don't like...well, of course. The alternative is twisted and weird and confusing.
 
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Well that’s up to you.

?

?



Originally Posted by Adstar: Well what type of surrender are you talking about here? Physical surrender or theological surrender? two different things.

Both.

Well as a Christian i would surender physically but i would never surender in the theological sense.



Originally Posted by Adstar:
Well from a Christian perspective you first try to flee, like many christians in Iraq and other muslim nations are trying to do now, But in the end if the option to flee is not there then yes as a Christian i would let him kill me.

Then you would thereby admit that the Muslim is right about God, and you are wrong.

How did you get that conclusion from what you quoted from me??? Where am i admiting that the muslim is right? Of course i don't think the muslims is right, if i did so i would surender to the message of islam.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Originally Posted by Adstar
If you are fighting against Gods thoughts, His will. Then you are fighting against God. It is irrelevant that you are not sure about who or what God is.
Because it makes perfect sense to feel guilty of something one doesn't understand, yes, riiight.

What?

Try giving me an example. So i can figure out what you're talking about here.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
wynn said:
Adstar said:
If you are fighting against Gods thoughts, His will. Then you are fighting against God. It is irrelevant that you are not sure about who or what God is.

Because it makes perfect sense to feel guilty of something one doesn't understand, yes, riiight.

What?

Try giving me an example. So i can figure out what you're talking about here.

You said:
If you are fighting against Gods thoughts, His will. Then you are fighting against God.
It is irrelevant that you are not sure about who or what God is.


To you, it appears to make perfect sense to accuse (and judge) someone of fighting against, even if this person has no idea that they are fighting against or against whom.


Kafka.
 
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