Does God ever use people to achieve His goals?

[wynn]

This has come up in another thread, and I want to give it proper exposure:




Does God ever use people to achieve His goals?


Is a guru someone who is used by God to achieve His goals?

If, for example, an angry Muslim attacks you for being a kafir: How do you know it is not God using this angry Muslim to achieve His goal?


Why surrender to the guru, but not to the angry Muslim?

 

[Ripley]

Because a guru is "endowed".

 

[Adstar]

This has come up in another thread, and I want to give it proper exposure:




Does God ever use people to achieve His goals?

Quite often.

Is a guru someone who is used by God to achieve His goals?

If, for example, an angry Muslim attacks you for being a kafir: How do you know it is not God using this angry Muslim to achieve His goal?


Why surrender to the guru, but not to the angry Muslim?

Well i cannot say that God would not use a guru or an devout muslim to achieve his goals. It the OT God used the pagan Persians to bring wrath upon the Jews and carry the remnant away into slavery. So God could one day use the muslims in a similar way, to bring wrath upon His people.

Anyone can be used by God. Even people opposed to God can be used by God look at the story of Pharaoh in the book of Exodus, classic case of a person being used by God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Pineal]

Why surrender to the guru, but not to the angry Muslim?

LOL. And that is a positive not a mocking LOL.
Why surrender, period? Is God at war with us? Our loving father or mother?

 

[Pineal]

Quite often.




Well i cannot say that God would not use a guru or an devout muslim to achieve his goals. It the OT God used the pagan Persians to bring wrath upon the Jews and carry the remnant away into slavery. So God could one day use the muslims in a similar way, to bring wrath upon His people.

Anyone can be used by God. Even people opposed to God can be used by God look at the story of Pharaoh in the book of Exodus, classic case of a person being used by God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

And in the NT God used angry Jews and mechanistic Romans to kill his own son by torturing him to death.

 

[wynn]

If God uses both people who are formally known as teachers, and people who come to kill you - then how can one know whom to surrender to?

If you don't surrender to the teacher - you're acting against God's will. I suppose this one is understandable enough.

If you don't surrender to an angry Muslim who wants to kill you - are you acting against God's will as well?

If a teacher wants to teach you, you're supposed to listen and learn.
And if an angry Muslism wants to kill you - you're supposed to let him kill you?

 

[Yazata]

Does God ever use people to achieve His goals?

I don't believe in God, so I'd have to say no. Theistic religions would likely say yes.

Is a guru someone who is used by God to achieve His goals?

If somebody is a theistic Hindu, I guess that they might believe something like that.

If, for example, an angry Muslim attacks you for being a kafir: How do you know it is not God using this angry Muslim to achieve His goal?

It's possible I guess. (Almost anything's possible.) But I don't think that it's likely enough to take seriously.

Why surrender to the guru, but not to the angry Muslim?

I haven't surrendered to any gurus. I intend to keep my wits about me for the duration of my life.

But I'm not totally opposed to the idea that big things are happening all around me that I know nothing about, and that some (perhaps all) of the events of my life have lessons if I only had the eyes to see.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

This has come up in another thread, and I want to give it proper exposure:




Does God ever use people to achieve His goals?

I do all the time . So do you . I tell you what when you put words in peoples mouths well it is the same thing . How else could get it done .

It is like this quote in the bible . Pray the Lord of the Harvest sends out his Laborers . Well you all are my Laborers and anyone that I come into contact with I put the words in your Mouth . Send out the laborers . Calling all the residents so to speak. Be good and go spread my word now

I got to go

edit for addition : Was Jesus the original Mother Fucker? If Jesus was God and god impregnated Mother Mary ? Then Jesus is a Mother Fucker. Right ?

 

[Pineal]

If God uses both people who are formally known as teachers, and people who come to kill you - then how can one know whom to surrender to?

Well, we are assuming God wants you to surrender. And then God could be sending you challenges. To tone down the examples - God sends you a real jerk. You could conceive of surrendering as letting the jerk treat you poorly. Or you could conceive of surrendering as surrendering to dignity and not let the jerk treat you poorly. God sends a wave when I am at the beach does not mean I have to stay on the bottom since the wave pushed me there.

If you don't surrender to the teacher - you're acting against God's will. I suppose this one is understandable enough.

If God likes every single teacher and thinks they are all appropriate teachers for us.

If you don't surrender to an angry Muslim who wants to kill you - are you acting against God's will as well?

If so, isn't it about time to go against such a God? I mean, what is the danger if we have an insane deity? We're f-----ed no matter what then.

If a teacher wants to teach you, you're supposed to listen and learn.
And if an angry Muslism wants to kill you - you're supposed to let him kill you?

Surrender takes you out of the equation. The angry Muslim is still in the equation. This person is taken as part of God's plan. His or her reactions and actions. But for some reason you assume that you must take you out of the equation. Why? Why are you a cipher if the Muslim is not?

If the Muslim can surrender to his own rage and impulses and be a part of God's plan, why can you not surrender to your urge to run away from said Muslim? Or hit him? Or wave for the police to stop him?

Why am I zero, outside, not part of the plan, to be annulled, and others are part of the plan?

(note, I don't believe in the surrender metaphor, but even within that metaphor, which I think has done a lot of damage, there is a lot more swing room than I think the above implies. On the other hand I think it works as a great critique of the surrender metaphor, which is part of why I laughed when I first read it.)

 

[wynn]

Surrender takes you out of the equation. The angry Muslim is still in the equation. This person is taken as part of God's plan. His or her reactions and actions. But for some reason you assume that you must take you out of the equation. Why? Why are you a cipher if the Muslim is not?

If the Muslim can surrender to his own rage and impulses and be a part of God's plan, why can you not surrender to your urge to run away from said Muslim? Or hit him? Or wave for the police to stop him?

Why am I zero, outside, not part of the plan, to be annulled, and others are part of the plan?

Yes, this is a good summary of the problem.

For one, much proselytizing takes place on the assumption that the non-member is a non-person, in effect. Thus joining such a religion requires that one reject oneself first.

But I cannot really specify what the problem for me here is, although it seems heavy and what you said above points at it.

 

[wynn]

Why surrender, period? Is God at war with us? Our loving father or mother?

Some theists will say that we are at war with God.

But as long as we don't know who or what God is, how are we supposed to make sense of this idea that we are at war with God?

 

[wynn]

Because a guru is "endowed".

And you can point out such gurus, endowed people, with their names and surnames?

 

[wynn]

Where is LG when we need him!!

 

[Pineal]

Some theists will say that we are at war with God.

Absolutely, in fact I think this is what they are saying with 'surrender' as a goal. In a sense I am arguing from incredulity in a context where most religions hold that God is good (or even great) and also loving.

I am sure some would say that it is we who are at war and that the best metaphor for us is to stop being at war. But that is a cruel evaluation, especially as it is universalized. Not that I can demonstrate this to people without insight or empathy.

But as long as we don't know who or what God is, how are we supposed to make sense of this idea that we are at war with God?

I suppose this connects to a point I used to make...who I am I to know what force i am to surrender to? If I am a being who must surrender, it seems by definition, that I do not have the wherewithal or goodness to make the right choice of what to surrender to. In my sinful, ignorant state, it seems just as likely I would end up surrendering to Satan. Which is certainly what it feels like much of the world has done. Surrendered to ideas that are not kind.

 

[Pineal]

Where is LG when we need him!!

You could role play him.

 

[Adstar]

If God uses both people who are formally known as teachers, and people who come to kill you - then how can one know whom to surrender to?

Well that’s up to you.

If you don't surrender to the teacher - you're acting against God's will. I suppose this one is understandable enough.

Well again is that teacher a true messenger of God? Again you decide whom you will accept as a messenger of God. And you do not "Surrender" to a messenger you surrender to the Message.

If you don't surrender to an angry Muslim who wants to kill you - are you acting against God's will as well?

Well what type of surrender are you talking about here? Physical surrender or theological surrender? two different things.

If a teacher wants to teach you, you're supposed to listen and learn.

Well it is good to give an ear and consider.

And if an angry Muslism wants to kill you - you're supposed to let him kill you?

Well from a Christian perspective you first try to flee, like many christians in Iraq and other muslim nations are trying to do now, But in the end if the option to flee is not there then yes as a Christian i would let him kill me.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

And in the NT God used angry Jews and mechanistic Romans to kill his own son by torturing him to death.

Well yes. Even in the ultimate case of people who where in rebellion against God, their violent actions only furthered Gods eternal plan.

As the Borg would say, "resistance is futile..."



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Some theists will say that we are at war with God.

But as long as we don't know who or what God is, how are we supposed to make sense of this idea that we are at war with God?

If you are fighting against Gods thoughts, His will. Then you are fighting against God. It is irrelevant that you are not sure about who or what God is.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wynn]

Well that’s up to you.

?

Well what type of surrender are you talking about here? Physical surrender or theological surrender? two different things.

Both.

Well from a Christian perspective you first try to flee, like many christians in Iraq and other muslim nations are trying to do now, But in the end if the option to flee is not there then yes as a Christian i would let him kill me.

Then you would thereby admit that the Muslim is right about God, and you are wrong.

 

[wynn]

If you are fighting against Gods thoughts, His will. Then you are fighting against God. It is irrelevant that you are not sure about who or what God is.

Because it makes perfect sense to feel guilty of something one doesn't understand, yes, riiight.