Does God ---- Do unto others?

[Greatest I am]

Does God ---- Do unto others?

There are many instances in scriptures where God does not follow the golden rule.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

In the sacrifice of Jesus, God demanded that Jesus bear the sins of the wicked who will repent.

This is hardly doing unto others or following the advice of scriptures.
----------------------------------
Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking): Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Hell can hardly be called a good thing. This again is hardly Jesus doing unto others or following the advice of scriptures.
-----------------------------------

Does the God you know follow the golden rule?

How can he be doing so when a good God would find a good and moral way to convert instead the draconian methods he seems to use that go against the golden rule and his own good advice in his scriptures?

Regards
DL

 

[Thoreau]

It goes back to the rules of morality on God's part.

Things that the God in the bible apparently did that appear cruel to us by today’s standards were moral when God carried them out or ordered them because he has sufficient moral reasons for doing them. We’ve all heard that argument a lot. I have to be honest, to me that seems by definition to be subjective morality, but I get the line of reason that says that God is the source of objective morality and is beyond human understanding and that he doesn’t need to answer to us, and all of that. But granted, let’s go one step further.

Is God bound to anything or by anything? Is there an absolute morality that God is incapable of breaking?

Think of the ancient Romans who, as a spectator sport, fed living people to lions to kill them by such means as slashing them with claws, ripping them with teeth, tearing muscles apart, and crushing bones presumably before eating the bodies and leaving scraps of flesh, hair, bits of organs and pools of blood lying around behind.

Now, treating a human being that way is certainly immoral by today’s standards and surely no Christian would suggest that God would be OK with people doing that. But, the very same God’s by who’s standard such a thing would be immoral did the same thing, sending wild animals upon people to kill them, not for sport but for punishment. (See 2 Kings 17, 2 Kings 2, 1 Kings 20). Of all the means for terminating a life that an omnipotent God has at his disposal, it chose ripping them apart with animals. And obviously, that was not outside of the moral. It can’t be, by definition.

So, I’m trying to get a grasp on the nature of the un-breakability or rigidity of the morality that the religious believe is ascribed to God. And I mean this literally. I want to know what you think as a religious believer. If setting wild animals upon people to kill them is not so appallingly cruel and barbaric as to be objectively, absolutely and unquestionably immoral, then what is? Is there anything that can never ever fall in the realm of the moral? I can’t think of much worse than killing people by throwing them to wild animals.

Lying is another example and a simple one. According to most interpretations, it’s forbidden in the 10 Commandments themselves. Yet, surely hiding Jews in your attic and lying to the Nazi’s knocking on your door is a kind and moral action. So, lying isn’t really objectively and absolutely immoral 100% of the time because there are circumstances when lying is the best course of action and the kindest.

It seems to be the consensus among the theists that whatever God says goes, and is, by definition, moral. But I’m asking here if there are things that God could never do or demand because they are absolutely immoral all the time. Because if setting wild animals on people to kill them is morally permissible in certain circumstances, let alone burning them alive or killing them with small rocks (See Leviticus 21) then what isn’t permissible?

What could God NOT order because it is immoral in all circumstances?

If God ordered or had ordered people to play a game of football using a new born baby instead of the ball, would that suddenly be moral?

 

[Greatest I am]

It may be too tough a question for believers to have a go at.

Scriptures tell us to emulate God. The bible and God are to be our guide to this.

One of the characteristics that you are to emulate, that God gives us is to not follow the biblical rules just like God does.

If believers think that God's rules do not apply to himself and his policy is ---do as I say and not as I do, --- and that that rule is good for a law maker, then what is being said is might makes right and to hell with morals and ethics.

Believers can have that God. I reject him completely.

Believers must live with their contradictory bible that speaks against their own God's actions.

You are correct in that there is a commandment not to lie. I agree that there are little white lies that are not lies as no ill will is intended.

God takes it up a notch.

Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

If we are to emulate God, greatly deceiving prophets.
Those are not little white lies.

Regards
DL

 

[arauca]

It may be too tough a question for believers to have a go at.

Scriptures tell us to emulate God. The bible and God are to be our guide to this.

One of the characteristics that you are to emulate, that God gives us is to not follow the biblical rules just like God does.

If believers think that God's rules do not apply to himself and his policy is ---do as I say and not as I do, --- and that that rule is good for a law maker, then what is being said is might makes right and to hell with morals and ethics.

Believers can have that God. I reject him completely.

.................................................................................
Do you have a particular faith , second time I ask you who is your god , let us get quietened with your god.

 

[Greatest I am]

It may be too tough a question for believers to have a go at.

Scriptures tell us to emulate God. The bible and God are to be our guide to this.

One of the characteristics that you are to emulate, that God gives us is to not follow the biblical rules just like God does.

If believers think that God's rules do not apply to himself and his policy is ---do as I say and not as I do, --- and that that rule is good for a law maker, then what is being said is might makes right and to hell with morals and ethics.

Believers can have that God. I reject him completely.

.................................................................................
Do you have a particular faith , second time I ask you who is your god , let us get quietened with your god.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship, it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL

 

[arauca]

He might not need for us but I need for him , I have to respect my creator . What kind of creation will I be If I don't honor Him

 

[Syne]

Scriptures tell us to emulate God.

You have not supported this statement.

Hint, attempting to do so should answer your question.

 

[Greatest I am]

He might not need for us but I need for him , I have to respect my creator . What kind of creation will I be If I don't honor Him

Your creator are your parents.

That can be proven with a DNA test.

What proof do you have that you were created by your imaginary God?

Duh. Faith. The belief in nothing.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

You have not supported this statement.

Hint, attempting to do so should answer your question.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If that is not enough then punch in --- example --- in your biblical search engine lazy.

Regards
DL

 

[Syne]

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If that is not enough then punch in --- example --- in your biblical search engine lazy.

Emulating the perfection of a god says nothing about emulating the wielding of the power of a god (which is impossible, unless of course you claim to be a god). Perhaps if you weren't lazily confirming a bias yourself, you'd find that there is a human example given to emulate.

 

[wellwisher]

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

In the sacrifice of Jesus, God demanded that Jesus bear the sins of the wicked who will repent.

One intellectual problem that is often created when comparing old and new testament, is it is like comparing apples to oranges and not apples to apples. Humans were different in the old testament (hundreds to thousand year earlier) and needed a different type of God. After centuries of conditioning, it was time for an easing in the standards for humans in the new testament. This is why the son appears, who is different from the father but of the same substance.

A good analogy is say we had two groups of humans. One group is full of good kids and other is full of hardened criminals. One set of rules will not optimize both. The criminals live by the sword and deception and respect strength. The good kids live by the golden rule and only need a few basic guidelines.

The way I look at it, the type of law that was in effect during different parts of the bible tells us al lot about the nature of humans at that time. They were not us in ancient clothes, but originally more like the criminally insane of today. The law of the old testament had that in mind.

By the time of Christ, at least some of the humans were more like modern humans and had the self control not to be like the beasts. You can lower the intensity of the laws at that point. The criminal would not understand love your neighbor unless that meant rape. But the good citizen understands this means acceptance like family.

 

[michael_taylor]

Humans were different in the old testament (hundreds to thousand year earlier) and needed a different type of God.

Not according to the new testament;


" And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."
Luke 16.17

" Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5.17-19

" Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
2 Peter 20-21

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. "
Matthew 10.34

 

[Greatest I am]

Emulating the perfection of a god says nothing about emulating the wielding of the power of a god (which is impossible, unless of course you claim to be a god). Perhaps if you weren't lazily confirming a bias yourself, you'd find that there is a human example given to emulate.

Sure. One with unworkable rhetoric and a penchant for self-aggrandizing suicide.
That or a genocidal father who had him murdered when there was no need to.

As to God's power, you just indicated that he cannot do perfection as scriptures say he can. Trying to have your cake and it it too I see; as you try to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

The deeper you look, the more immoral and silly Christianity looks.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

One intellectual problem that is often created when comparing old and new testament, is it is like comparing apples to oranges and not apples to apples. Humans were different in the old testament (hundreds to thousand year earlier) and needed a different type of God. After centuries of conditioning, it was time for an easing in the standards for humans in the new testament. This is why the son appears, who is different from the father but of the same substance.

A good analogy is say we had two groups of humans. One group is full of good kids and other is full of hardened criminals. One set of rules will not optimize both. The criminals live by the sword and deception and respect strength. The good kids live by the golden rule and only need a few basic guidelines.

The way I look at it, the type of law that was in effect during different parts of the bible tells us al lot about the nature of humans at that time. They were not us in ancient clothes, but originally more like the criminally insane of today. The law of the old testament had that in mind.

By the time of Christ, at least some of the humans were more like modern humans and had the self control not to be like the beasts. You can lower the intensity of the laws at that point. The criminal would not understand love your neighbor unless that meant rape. But the good citizen understands this means acceptance like family.

You show a complete lack of knowledge of what you are talking about.

Read some Egyptian history and you see the continuity of man's character.

As to Jesus, if you are silly enough to read scriptures literally, was a victim of his own insane father who had him murdered when there was no need to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaQpRZJl18&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs

Regards
DL

 

[Syne]

Sure. One with unworkable rhetoric and a penchant for self-aggrandizing suicide.
That or a genocidal father who had him murdered when there was no need to.

As to God's power, you just indicated that he cannot do perfection as scriptures say he can. Trying to have your cake and it it too I see; as you try to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

The deeper you look, the more immoral and silly Christianity looks.

Suicide? As far as I remember it, men killed Jesus. Genocidal? I think you mean filicidal. Jesus died for (because of) the sins (evils) of the world. Any man unjustifiably killed by another is no different. So like any other unjustified murder, its possibility is a necessity of freewill. A god doesn't directly have anything to do with it.

... if you are silly enough to read scriptures literally...

I was just about to mention that to you.

 

[kx000]

God is above the law.

 

[Greatest I am]

Suicide? As far as I remember it, men killed Jesus. Genocidal? I think you mean filicidal. Jesus died for (because of) the sins (evils) of the world. Any man unjustifiably killed by another is no different. So like any other unjustified murder, its possibility is a necessity of freewill. A god doesn't directly have anything to do with it.

The good old free will B S gambit.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

Free will has no imposed and arbitrary constraints.

Did God not say, though shalt not, before A & E had shown that they were autonomous creatures.
Yes he did.

Did God not throw a sissy fit against A & E the very first time they did their will and not his?
Yes he did. On them and the earth and all of us. Original sin.

Are those not constraints in your view?

God says————You are free to do whatever you want but here are 10 commandments and you will burn in hell forever if you do your will and not mine. Go exercise your free unencumbered will now.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

God is above the law.

And we are to emulate him and thus also should put oyrselves above the law.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Dumber and dumber.

You are a good Muslim impersonating a Christian.

They can do that well enough on their own and do not need the help of a black op Muslim

Regards
DL

 

[kx000]

And we are to emulate him and thus also should put oyrselves above the law.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Dumber and dumber.

You are a good Muslim impersonating a Christian.

They can do that well enough on their own and do not need the help of a black op Muslim

Regards
DL

Except I despise ignorant hate of women, and homosexuals. God is perfect, if one lies he could lie to them, or he could punish him. We do unto God, he sits and waits for the end. Period. Both bare false witness, Christians bare false idol too.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You show a complete lack of knowledge of what you are talking about.

Read some Egyptian history and you see the continuity of man's character.

As to Jesus, if you are silly enough to read scriptures literally, was a victim of his own insane father who had him murdered when there was no need to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaQpRZJl18&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs

Regards
DL

Aside from the fact that your links are meaningless to any reasonable discussion because they are merely the explanation of athiests justifying their worldview, you've completely missed the point of wellwishers statements, which are completely reasonable and unbiased.

Argue his points instead of sweeping them under the carpet. I'm sure that if your worldview has any merit, it will at least bring something to the table.


jan.