Does bible make more sense to those who believe?

[mustafhakofi]

Does "everyone" refer to the heathen in our midst?


Since you have apparently read the Bible, but are still ignorant of whether or not it is "god's word's".

2 Tim. 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

It is obviously not. No one said it is and it is very obvious from this.

unfortunately your statement fall's on deaf hear's, because your quoting from the that very book.
It seem's I for one, am banging my head against a wall, trying to get through to you.
I may as well talk, to the tree's there's more sense there.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Being fidei defensor is very tedious, I must admit. Your point?

*************
M*W: ...but you've already admitted to being a slave to God, and that is the inferior position in which you have chosen to place yourself. Now you're complaining the position you have taken as "fidei defensor" is "very tedious!" Is that how a true fidei defensor talks? You are not only loudly boasting that you are a fidei defensor and a slave to God, then publically proclaim on an internationally read forum that this place where you have put yourself is "very tedious!" This must be so, since you're not doing a very good job as fidei defensor, and you have proven yourself to be nothing more than a typical Christian hypocrite. Do you know why this is tedious for you? Because what you claim to be defending is not the truth. Otherwise, it would be easy.

 

[Adstar]

So, let me get this straight. The dumbasses who will read and believe anything on first glance get blessed with the power to understand the very Word of God. Meanwhile, those of more discerning tastes will actually be "cursed" with "great iniquity"? Doesn't sound like a very good system for conversion to me.

Well there is a block to understanding The word it can be boiled down to one Word "PRIDE"

You see the "dumbasses" as you call them are actually Meekasses. They know they need saving, They are not so arrogant as to think that they can fugure out God with their limited capabilities, no its actually the pridfull, arrogant, self centered, know it all's who think they can investigate God and declare Him null and void.


1 Corinthians 1
20Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

27But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29that no flesh should glory in His presence.

You see justaride people who believe in this "foolishness" have embraced the Love of the truth, yes the love of grace that God has made avaliable to us faulty believers. The meek know they are limited and know they need help to understand So they are given what they need to know. But the pridefull and cocky ones who seek to define God will read the word and be left shaking their heads or lead down a theological dead end into oblivion. isn't it amazing that God could think up a such a faith designed to save the simple meek ones and leave all the puffed up intellectuals grasping at straws.

Matthew 11
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.


Pride commeth before destruction and the Meek shall inherit the earth.

The saving wisdom is to know you are a fool. Because once one knows they are a fool they will seek Gods Guidance and listen to His will.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[water]

2 and 2 always make a 5 ...

Because you're not paying attention!
No, you're not paying attention!

 

[Alpha]

What would you define then as horrible as ALL Christians admit to sinning and no sin can be greater than another.

According to the bible Christians cannot sin. If they did, then they were never really Christian. As for one sin being no greater than any other... That's bure BS and another example of the corrupt sense of ethics one gets from the bible/Christianity.

Well, first off if they are nonbelievers then their criticisms can never be valid.

Are you saying it's not possible for atheists to pose the same questions/problems as believers?

How is truth measured by the Bible? Where does the Bible say this?

Not the bible that says it, but believers do by the act of believing. Which is funny, because your question is an example of just that: trying to measure truth by the bible.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Well there is a block to understanding The word it can be boiled down to one Word "PRIDE"

You see the "dumbasses" as you call them are actually Meekasses. They know they need saving, They are not so arrogant as to think that they can fugure out God with their limited capabilities, no its actually the pridfull, arrogant, self centered, know it all's who think they can investigate God and declare Him null and void.

You see justaride people who believe in this "foolishness" have embraced the Love of the truth, yes the love of grace that God has made avaliable to us faulty believers. The meek know they are limited and know they need help to understand So they are given what they need to know. But the pridefull and cocky ones who seek to define God will read the word and be left shaking their heads or lead down a theological dead end into oblivion. isn't it amazing that God could think up a such a faith designed to save the simple meek ones and leave all the puffed up intellectuals grasping at straws.

The saving wisdom is to know you are a fool. Because once one knows they are a fool they will seek Gods Guidance and listen to His will.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

*************
M*W: Being a "fool" is not what I call having "saving wisdom." A fool is a fool is a fool. Fools don't "seek God's guidance" nor "listen to His (sic) [their Creator's will]." Fools are the meek, and the meek will inherit ONLY the Earth, but fools meek like you and SouthStar will never inherit heaven if by any slim chance there is one. You're still living back in the "ancient of days." It's time for you to move on.

 

[Enigma'07]

but fools meek like you and SouthStar will never inherit heaven if by any slim chance there is one.

Fool means "one with knowledge of God, but doesn't follow it". Those two have plenty of knowledge AND they follow it. The way to inherit the kingdom is by being meek as adstar said, in the sense that you reconize you're not perfect, and you ask to to make you perfect, as His risen Son is perfect.

 

[§outh§tar]

*************
M*W: ...but you've already admitted to being a slave to God, and that is the inferior position in which you have chosen to place yourself.

I wish to assure you, even ask Adstart, Enigma'07, and many others in Christ.. being a slave of God is a MOST glorious honor. I did not, of my own power, choose to be a Christian, for "He first loved me".

Now you're complaining the position you have taken as "fidei defensor" is "very tedious!" Is that how a true fidei defensor talks?

That part of my statement was only a joke. Do you not see how I speak with JustARide and invert_nexus? I know I can joke with them because, unlike you, they do not construe my words so. All Christians are defenders of the faith, first and foremost. Ask any Christian on this board and they will tell you so.

You are not only loudly boasting that you are a fidei defensor and a slave to God, then publically proclaim on an internationally read forum that this place where you have put yourself is "very tedious!"

Please see the above statements where I assure you that I have not "put" myself in any place, lest I take glory for myself. All Christians admit being a slave to God. If the master loves his slave (agape love), what animosity can his servant possibly harbor?

This must be so, since you're not doing a very good job as fidei defensor, and you have proven yourself to be nothing more than a typical Christian hypocrite. Do you know why this is tedious for you? Because what you claim to be defending is not the truth. Otherwise, it would be easy.

Again, I was only joking by saying it was "tedious". You can ask invert_nexus yourself. Alas, my words have been misconstrued but I do appreciate your concern for me..

 

[§outh§tar]

According to the bible Christians cannot sin.

Again, where do you find that statement? As much as I would love to believe it, you and I know (regretfully) that there is actually no such thing.

If they did, then they were never really Christian. As for one sin being no greater than any other... That's bure BS and another example of the corrupt sense of ethics one gets from the bible/Christianity.

That is you following man's morality. You may think that lying to your girlfriend/wife to save your relationship is not as "bad" as murdering millions but that is not true. Even if you follow every jot and tittle in the Law, but falter in one place, you are guilty of all. Any Christian reading this who thinks I'm wrong should please tell me otherwise.

Are you saying it's not possible for atheists to pose the same questions/problems as believers?

I'm saying they do not pose them for the same purpose. Some pose their questions in a way to imply that the Bible is imperfect and some have questions to increase their knowledge. This is quite clear from the nature of questions asked on this forum.

Not the bible that says it, but believers do by the act of believing. Which is funny, because your question is an example of just that: trying to measure truth by the bible.

I don't really understand this. Could you explain it? As a side note, I believe it wasn't until the Reformation that the papacy was rejected as the other authority on God, leaving the Bible as the final authority in Christianity.

 

[§outh§tar]

unfortunately your statement fall's on deaf hear's, because your quoting from the that very book.
It seem's I for one, am banging my head against a wall, trying to get through to you.
I may as well talk, to the tree's there's more sense there.

Perhaps it may put things in perspective if you realize that this feeling is mutual..

Galatians 1
11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

 

[JustARide]

That is not true at all. I do not understand things in the Bible and it does not mean I am not reading "close enough". Such difficulties encourage one to rely on God and not their own power or ability to interpret, and also to convene with other saints to discuss these things.

Convene with saints, eh? That's some potent North Sao Paulo trip weed you've got there. Mind if I take a hit?

What would you define then as horrible as ALL Christians admit to sinning and no sin can be greater than another.

Oh, really. So then it's safe to say Christians are not better than the rest of us? Hurray for us godless heathens!

But don't go denying that Christians -- just like member of any ideologically-programmed community -- immediately dump the crazy people who do shit that doesn't exactly gel with the stated goals of the group and claim they weren't "really Christians" in the first place. This is why we see constant attempts on this board to label Hitler a Christian or an atheist and Proud Muslim carps endlessly about which Muslims he rejects or accepts as "true" Muslims. It's all about owning or disowning people (and ideas) in order to cleanse the troops of any undesirable elements -- not about actually examining what those people believe.

What do you mean "does something good"? If a Mormon donated to a Christian 's charity how is that talking to God? Atheists do these things and glorify themselves for being righteous, but their iniquity is self-evident for we know them by their fruit.

Heh. Your answer itself provides me plenty o' reply fodder. You first ask how Christians could judge all good acts as coming from their Lord (the Mormon example) and then proceed to show your bias toward anything good an atheist does. Wonderful.

I, for one, am glad when <i>anyone</i> of <i>any</i> faith does something beneficial to humanity. I don't give a shit about the reasons. To quote a cheesy Ozzy Osbourne song, "Your higher power may be God or Jesus Christ. It doesn't really matter much to me. Without each other's help, there ain't no hope for us..."

Well, first off if they are nonbelievers then their criticisms can never be valid.

Well then, as my friend Jimmy Pineapple used to say, "Case fucking closed."

How is truth measured by the Bible? Where does the Bible say this?

You clearly measure truth by the Bible because you justify every damn thing you say with a Bible verse. Obviously you aren't using rationality or logic as your truth barometer, bro.

 

[§outh§tar]

Convene with saints, eh? That's some potent North Sao Paulo trip weed you've got there. Mind if I take a hit?

Sure, 2 bucks...

Oh, really. So then it's safe to say Christians are not better than the rest of us? Hurray for us godless heathens!

Christians were never better and never will be. God's grace and mercy is what separates the two, you godless heathen!

But don't go denying that Christians -- just like member of any ideologically-programmed community -- immediately dump the crazy people who do shit that doesn't exactly gel with the stated goals of the group and claim they weren't "really Christians" in the first place. This is why we see constant attempts on this board to label Hitler a Christian or an atheist and Proud Muslim carps endlessly about which Muslims he rejects or accepts as "true" Muslims. It's all about owning or disowning people (and ideas) in order to cleanse the troops of any undesirable elements -- not about actually examining what those people believe.

Matthew 7
5"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

This is the ONLY way to know who is a Christian and who isn't. So it is obviously not about disowning people, since if they were "good trees", as the analogy puts it, they would not bear "bad fruit".

Heh. Your answer itself provides me plenty o' reply fodder. You first ask how Christians could judge all good acts as coming from their Lord (the Mormon example) and then proceed to show your bias toward anything good an atheist does. Wonderful.

I was equating the two, not making one better than the other.

Well then, as my friend Jimmy Pineapple used to say, "Case fucking closed."

Was that really his last name?

You clearly measure truth by the Bible because you justify every damn thing you say with a Bible verse. Obviously you aren't using rationality or logic as your truth barometer, bro.

Tell me then how does one use rationality and logic as a "truth barometer". Tell me SPECIFICALLY how. If you are able to give me something plausible, I will admit it.

 

[JustARide]

Sure, 2 bucks...

2 bucks? Wow, Christians really are generous.

Christians were never better and never will be.

Please tell this to your Christian brethren. Some of them seem to have gotten the wrong idea.

Matthew 7
5"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

This is the ONLY way to know who is a Christian and who isn't. So it is obviously not about disowning people, since if they were "good trees", as the analogy puts it, they would not bear "bad fruit".

Ahh, so, once again, let me ask...

Ghandi bore some pretty good fruit. Where is he right now?

I think you're failing to understand what I'm saying. Your little good fruit/bad fruit argument is precisely what my initial cover-all-bases comment criticized. Saying all "true" Christians bear good fruit is simply another way of harvesting the best from your flock and conveniently forgetting about those who call themselves Christians and yet are terrible fucking human beings. Hence, those who bear good fruit -- voila! Christians! Those who bear bad fruit -- ahh, look over there! *runs away*

I was equating the two, not making one better than the other.

Right. Well, let me me ask you this then.

Say an atheist was to do something very "Christian" -- would you give him credit for it or would you just claim it was the spirit of your God moving in him even if he didn't know it?

Was that really his last name?

That was another obscure reference to a Bill Hicks routine. I have no friend named Jimmy Pineapple.

Tell me then how does one use rationality and logic as a "truth barometer". Tell me SPECIFICALLY how. If you are able to give me something plausible, I will admit it.

I used the first two words that popped into my head. It could have been postmodern theory and deconstruction for all I care.

The point is this: logic and rationality are systems of thought with rules (eg logical fallacies, scientific method, etc, etc). Are they perfect? No, probably not. But I find they work a great deal better than ancient texts written by barbaric, religious fanatics. Of course, nothing I could say is going to convince you of anything anyway, so I won't tread down that well-worn path.

My original point did not deal with reliability of systems of thought (though your attempt to obfuscate and change the subject was admirable), but rather the circular reasoning inherent in Bible-related arguments. If you do not rely on the Bible to define truth for you, what exactly would you do fall back on? And if you don't believe the Bible is true because it says it is, why do you believe it is true?

What's that song they teach kids? Oh yes, "Jesus loves me, this I know. For the Bible tells me so..." Yep, that just about sums it up.

 

[§outh§tar]

Please tell this to your Christian brethren. Some of them seem to have gotten the wrong idea.

Show this text to them:

1 John

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

That should sober 'em up.

Ahh, so, once again, let me ask...

Ghandi bore some pretty good fruit. Where is he right now?

Well I don't know much about him or what he believed at the time of his death therefore I can't say.

I think you're failing to understand what I'm saying. Your little good fruit/bad fruit argument is precisely what my initial cover-all-bases comment criticized. Saying all "true" Christians bear good fruit is simply another way of harvesting the best from your flock and conveniently forgetting about those who call themselves Christians and yet are terrible fucking human beings. Hence, those who bear good fruit -- voila! Christians! Those who bear bad fruit -- ahh, look over there! *runs away*

Well, all I can say is either you love Christ enough to submit to Him or you don't. If you are a Christian, I don't believe you can lose your salvation. From the verses I showed you above you can see that ALL Christians sin, or at least have sinned , but if you see someone who claims to be a Christian and yet persistently does things which are "non-Christian" without any remorse, then your doubts are justified. The Bible warns against making unjustified accusations against members, we are also to do these things in correction. This means we try to help them see where they are going wrong, not cast them away as that is NOT our responsibility or right in any way.

Remember this as you read:

Matthew 7
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

This supports the earlier verses which remind us that we have all sinned. It also supports what I said about it not being our responsibility to "cast away" the bad fruit, but only to try to correct.

Right. Well, let me me ask you this then.

Say an atheist was to do something very "Christian" -- would you give him credit for it or would you just claim it was the spirit of your God moving in him even if he didn't know it?

I am sure you have seen this before but here it is again. *Note* This text follows the one about 'good and bad fruit'.

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I think this is pretty much self explanatory..

I used the first two words that popped into my head. It could have been postmodern theory and deconstruction for all I care.

The point is this: logic and rationality are systems of thought with rules (eg, logical fallacies, scientific method, etc, etc). Are they perfect? No, probably not. But I find they work a great deal better than ancient texts written by barbaric, religious fanatics. Of course, nothing I could say is going to convince you of anything anyway, so I won't tread down that well-worn path.

Christians can't lose their salvation. It is not even a choice they have, not like free will where they can "unchristianize" themselves, if you have seen the other thread asking how to do this. So it's not like I can help it.

My original point did not deal with how reliable any system of thought is (though your attempt to obfuscate and change the subject was admirable), but rather the circular reasoning inherent in Bible-related arguments. If you do not rely on the Bible to define truth for you, what exactly would you do fall back on? And if you don't believe the Bible is true because it says it is, why do you believe it is true?

What's that song they teach kids? Oh yes, "Jesus love me, this I know. For the Bible tells me so..." Yep, that just about sums it up.

2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

There is an apologetic thingy here to explain it for you probably better than I can..

 

[Alpha]

Again, where do you find that statement? As much as I would love to believe it, you and I know (regretfully) that there is actually no such thing.

Again? I didn't see you ask a first time. But here you go:
1 John 3
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You may think that lying to your girlfriend/wife to save your relationship is not as "bad" as murdering millions but that is not true. Even if you follow every jot and tittle in the Law, but falter in one place, you are guilty of all.

How could you possibly think that murdering millions is as small a crime as lying!? How does breaking one law mean you're guilty of any other?

I'm saying they do not pose them for the same purpose.

Irrelevant. That doesn't negate the arguments.

Some pose their questions in a way to imply that the Bible is imperfect and some have questions to increase their knowledge. This is quite clear from the nature of questions asked on this forum.

Have you considered that some of the people have already asked the questions to increase their knowledge, and have learned something you haven't? By posing the same questions to you, you can learn the same things.

Not the bible that says it, but believers do by the act of believing. Which is funny, because your question is an example of just that: trying to measure truth by the bible.

I don't really understand this. Could you explain it? As a side note, I believe it wasn't until the Reformation that the papacy was rejected as the other authority on God, leaving the Bible as the final authority in Christianity.

You are using the bible not just as an authority in Christianity, but an authority in truth. By the act of believing in the bible, you are effectively saying that you're using the bible to determine what is true just because it says it's true. But just because the claim is there doesn't mean it should be believed. It must be evaluated. Your question earlier was:
"How is truth measured by the Bible? Where does the Bible say this?"
You're looking to the bible to find this 'truth'. You need to see if it's in there to evaluate whether or not it's true. That's what's funny.

Galatians 1
11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Yet again you quote from the bible, but you can't prove the bible is true simply by quoting from it. It must be evaluated against reason and facts. Anyone can write a book and claim they were inspired by God, that it's his words, etc., etc. That doesn't make it true. The same applies to the bible, or any other book.

 

[Jenyar]

1 John 3
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.​

Therefore? Whoever does sin is not born of God! The next verse reads:

10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.​

God tolerates no sin. That's why Jesus said, if your hand sins, cut it off - if your eyes sin, pull them out. Harsh words. Makes you wonder how much is really expected of you.

But John makes an interesting point: when will you know that you are truly without sin? When are you truly a Christian? In the first place: when you keep the verse above in mind when thinking about sin and your relationship with it.

Second, when you realize that in Christ there is no sin:

5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.​

- what does that mean to you? Who is your only salvation?

24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.​

What is that Spirit? "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God". Are you following John's methodology? Jesus is indispensible for our salvation! He is the only one who is "truly born of God", the only seed that will remain to bear fruit after death. It's not by our efforts to become or remain sinless that we are saved, it's by being clothed by Christ, washed by him, and known by Him. He became sin for us, remember?