Do you sense your own belief?

[§outh§tar]

Okinrus,



And yet -- all love, peace, good works, hope, trust and the rest of the virtues -- that one may have and do, are *completely worthless* if done by a non-Christian, right?

A non-Christian cannot do these things and therefore such would be impossible.
Only the saving grace of our Lord can surely lead the soul to pursue the fruits of the Spirit of Holiness.

Galatians 5
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

[okinrus]

And yet -- all love, peace, good works, hope, trust and the rest of the virtues -- that one may have and do, are *completely worthless* if done by a non-Christian, right?

No, if they were worthless for a nonchristian, they would be worthless for a Christian.

 

[water]

A non-Christian cannot do these things and therefore such would be impossible.

You are thereby saying that when a non-Christian loves, has hope, finds trust, makes peace etc. -- he is only *fooling* himself and everybody else? He is a fraud, a humbug?

For example, when I love someone -- then I don't really love them, I only *think* I do. Because, according to you, as I don't follow God, I don't know what love is, and therefore whenever I am nice (and I am told that I can be nice too), this is a fake niceness? That all my love is fake? That all my hope is fake?

 

[water]

No, if they were worthless for a nonchristian, they would be worthless for a Christian.

My experience with *Christians* tells me otherwise.

"You are nothing unless you declare yourself to be a follower of Christ," I was (not so kindly) let to know.

 

[okinrus]

A non-Christian cannot do these things and therefore such would be impossible.
Only the saving grace of our Lord can surely lead the soul to pursue the fruits of the Spirit of Holiness.

St. Thomas Aquinas says this.
<blockquote>answer that, As stated above (I-II, 85, 2,4) mortal sin takes away sanctifying grace, but does not wholly corrupt the good of nature. Since therefore, unbelief is a mortal sin, unbelievers are without grace indeed, yet some good of nature remains in them. Consequently it is evident that unbelievers cannot do those good works which proceed from grace, viz. meritorious works; yet they can, to a certain extent, do those good works for which the good of nature suffices. </blockquote>
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/301004.htm

 

[okinrus]

My experience with *Christians* tells me otherwise.

Are these just missionary Christians or ordinary Christians?

 

[Jenyar]

And yet -- all love, peace, good works, hope, trust and the rest of the virtues -- that one may have and do, are *completely worthless* if done by a non-Christian, right?

Virtues have no inherent worth. If they had, they would be a means to attain grace. They're the body and bones of faith, which is why I said you already know God. But whether you believe God gives them worth is a matter of faith - the lifeblood of everything that comes from God. Without faith, love, justice, forgiveness and all virtues will die along with all vices and injustice.

I think this is also important: The Bible is not a source per se - it isn't the first and only means of knowing God, but it does represent what people across the ages have learned about, and more importantly, from Him. Any seeking for God must allow for God to guide you and present Himself, don't you agree?

 

[Jenyar]

To believe in God the same way, I must sense God somehow, and in sensing, I will immediately believe that I have sensed... what? sensed God? God is a label. So take away the label. I sense.. and believe instantly.
...
So how do you determine that there is this Spirit you speak of. How do you know this Spirit is in you? Use you're own words, don't quote the Bible.
...
Yes! and THAT is God! ...not something built up in your mind based on a political religion and not something based on a scrambled bunch of writing.

How can you say that? Once we have determined that God is Spirit, and that a label not contain Him, you proceed to do just that: label Him as that which is sensed. That way, you automatically and inextricably connect "God" to he who senses - i.e. yourself. You've gone full circle.

I really liked your analogy of senses. We do sense God in a similar way that we sense other things, but the sensory "organ" we use is of a diferent kind - it's spiritual instead of physical. Physical "gods" are easy to perceive, but people know it can't be that simple, so they attempt to spiritualize it. Pleasure and Self are just two popular examples, but almost anything can be spiritualized and elevated to godlike status. That is what the apostles called "letting something enslave you".

The Spirit of God is not an embodiment of "everything that is spiritual", it represents God himself. Also called the Spirit of Truth, He shows us who God is, and this knowledge can be expressed. The Bible is contains what God has expressed about Himself (i.e. revealed) through people like us. Our lives themselves are the sequel to the Bible; what happened in the years "after Christ" - AD.

We quote the Bible because it contains these "sensory experiences". You don't discard knowledge because it's old, why should Christians? Truth doesn't age; the Spirit of Truth is eternal. John told us how to recognize it:

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God (1 John 4:2)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar (1 John 2:3)
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. (1 John 3:23)​

At the risk of sounding like a gnostic: God expressed His truth through man (His image), established it by man's words (the ten words or "commandments"), which revealed sinful man to us, as well as revealing the Son of Man in conjunction with prophets (inspired by the Spirit), eventually exemplified by Jesus (the Word become flesh) who also spoke the truth about God in human words and deeds, recorded and remembered in what came to be known as God's Word (the Bible). All breathed by the same Spirit of truth, wisdom and revelation - the same Spirit who is the testimony for Christ and God.

 

[everneo]

A non-Christian cannot do these things and therefore such would be impossible.

Come out of your seminary into the real world out there.

 

[everneo]

St. Thomas Aquinas says this.
<blockquote>answer that, As stated above (I-II, 85, 2,4) mortal sin takes away sanctifying grace, but does not wholly corrupt the good of nature. Since therefore, unbelief is a mortal sin, unbelievers are without grace indeed, yet some good of nature remains in them. Consequently it is evident that unbelievers cannot do those good works which proceed from grace, viz. meritorious works; yet they can, to a certain extent, do those good works for which the good of nature suffices. </blockquote>
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/301004.htm

Were Moses, Abraham, David... Christians ? if not, unbelievers ?

 

[Jenyar]

Everneo,

I believe the sense in which they "cannot do" these things is in the place works occupy within God's plan for redemption. As such it profits the good of nature, but is not representative of their position before God - that's negated simply because they deny Him.

Just like deeds without love are robbed of meaning (1 Cor. 13), virtue is not possible without God. That "impossibility" doesn't mean only believers can't physically carry it out, only that God is always implicit in them - and to deny Him is to deny the authority by which virtues are consider "virtuous". Nature certainly gives or takes no credit for it. Do you?

 

[everneo]

virtue is not possible without God.

I take it as : God does not withhold granting virtue even to a non-believer. Because I have seen lot of virtuous non-believers ; I have seen more lot of virtuous non-christians.

..to deny Him is to deny the authority by which virtues are consider "virtuous".

That denial does not change God's grace for all. God still left 'virtue' among non-believers, denying this is to deny God's grace. First, Let God decide whether to give the non-christians any 'virtue'. Then let Him decide, in consultation with Christ and SouthStar, whether their God-given 'virtue' could be taken into account as 'virtue'.

 

[okinrus]

Were Moses, Abraham, David... Christians ? if not, unbelievers ?

No, it would seem they had implicit faith. For instance, Christ said that even Abraham awaited his day. Also, unbelief isn't a mortal sin unless if the person is aware of what he or she is doing.

 

[Enigma'07]

In the Old Testament, in order to be saved, a person had to believe that Christ was going to come and die for their sins. Once they died, they went to a place called Abraham's bosom. This was just a storage place untill Christ did come and die. Once that occured, they went to heaven, just as those that die in the church age do. So in the longrun, yes; David, Moses, Abraham, all were believers, they were called such things as righteous, and God's friend. God cannot call an enemy his friend.

 

[water]

Okinrus,

Are these just missionary Christians or ordinary Christians?

I grew up in a Catholic environment (my family is non-religious though), and I had about 2 years of close-up experiences with Mormon missionaries and Mormons.

***


Jenyar,

Virtues have no inherent worth. If they had, they would be a means to attain grace. They're the body and bones of faith, which is why I said you already know God. But whether you believe God gives them worth is a matter of faith - the lifeblood of everything that comes from God. Without faith, love, justice, forgiveness and all virtues will die along with all vices and injustice.

I think this is also important: The Bible is not a source per se - it isn't the first and only means of knowing God, but it does represent what people across the ages have learned about, and more importantly, from Him. Any seeking for God must allow for God to guide you and present Himself, don't you agree?

You know what really beats me down when around Christians? That I mostly get this "you're not enough, but I am because I follow God" attitude.
I feel that no matter what I do, it will never be good enough for them, for you. That I could never be good enough for them, or for you.

I feel that Christians look down on me, and resent me because I am not a Christian. I am treated as if am not their equal -- but something less. I have been sent to hell several times. My happiness and my love are "A non-Christian cannot do these things and therefore such would be impossible." and "yet they can, *to a certain extent*, do those good works for which the good of nature suffices." Yet I keep being told how much Christians love everyone.
And I am tired of this. I think I will take my leave from here.

***


Everneo,

That denial does not change God's grace for all. God still left 'virtue' among non-believers, denying this is to deny God's grace. First, Let God decide whether to give the non-christians any 'virtue'. Then let Him decide, in consultation with Christ /.../, whether their God-given 'virtue' could be taken into account as 'virtue'.

I think this is the best possible take on religious belief and virtues.

Great to have you here.

 

[Enigma'07]

"I feel that no matter what I do, it will never be good enough for them"

I think that with some relationships, such as merrital, this is true. But I also believe that I can learn alot from people, even if they have differant beliefs than me. I agree that some christians think this way, and they are wrong to think that. For a friend, yes, I do think you are way beyond good enough, and I see no reason why they should look down apon you. Perhaps I don't know you well enough to say all of that, so I apologize if I have offended you in any way.

 

[okinrus]

I grew up in a Catholic environment (my family is non-religious though), and I had about 2 years of close-up experiences with Mormon missionaries and Mormons.

What I mean is that I've had bad experiences with missionary christians, and with a little explaining, they're not that bad.

You know what really beats me down when around Christians? That I mostly get this "you're not enough, but I am because I follow God" attitude.

No one's good enough RosaMagika. We say this "I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I shall be healed."

I feel that no matter what I do, it will never be good enough for them, for you. That I could never be good enough for them, or for you.

One of the toughest things to overcome is that other's perception of you does not matter, only God's. You have to not care what other's think.

I feel that Christians look down on me, and resent me because I am not a Christian. I am treated as if am not their equal -- but something less. I have been sent to hell several times.

I don't know what to tell you. Am I supposed to send you to heaven several times?

My happiness and my love are "A non-Christian cannot do these things and therefore such would be impossible." and "yet they can, *to a certain extent*, do those good works for which the good of nature suffices." Yet I keep being told how much Christians love everyone.

Aquinas wrote that with reference to people who have committed the mortal sin of unbelief and have not been forgiven. Christians believe that you can do no good without God. But since everything is possible with God, I would suppose you could do any good that God allows you to do.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

What I mean is that I've had bad experiences with missionary christians, and with a little explaining, they're not that bad

.
*************
M*W: No one's good enough RosaMagika. We say this "I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I shall be healed."
*************
M*W: Yes, that is the Catholic belief.
*************
One of the toughest things to overcome is that other's perception of you does not matter, only God's. You have to not care what other's think.
*************
M*W: Yes, this is absolutely true. What other's may believe is not the absolute truth.
*************

I don't know what to tell you. Am I supposed to send you to heaven several times?

*************
M*W: That is not your position.
*************

Aquinas wrote that with reference to people who have committed the mortal sin of unbelief and have not been forgiven. Christians believe that you can do no good without God. But since everything is possible with God, I would suppose you could do any good that God allows you to do.

*************
M*W: One's belief is not necessarily another's belief.
*************

Those who profess Christianity should be able to access the truth about Pauline Christianity. There is really no such thing as "Pauline Christianity." This is a farce.

 

[surenderer]

In the Old Testament, in order to be saved, a person had to believe that Christ was going to come and die for their sins. Once they died, they went to a place called Abraham's bosom. This was just a storage place untill Christ did come and die. Once that occured, they went to heaven, just as those that die in the church age do. So in the longrun, yes; David, Moses, Abraham, all were believers, they were called such things as righteous, and God's friend. God cannot call an enemy his friend.

Hello Enigma,
Can you quote me your sources on this?........peace to you

 

[§outh§tar]

St. Thomas Aquinas says this.
<blockquote>answer that, As stated above (I-II, 85, 2,4) mortal sin takes away sanctifying grace, but does not wholly corrupt the good of nature. Since therefore, unbelief is a mortal sin, unbelievers are without grace indeed, yet some good of nature remains in them. Consequently it is evident that unbelievers cannot do those good works which proceed from grace, viz. meritorious works; yet they can, to a certain extent, do those good works for which the good of nature suffices. </blockquote>
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/301004.htm

St. Thomas must therefore have been an Arminian. Since he's a saint, I'm guessing he was therefore martyred. Publically supporting Arminanism in Christian circles these days is suicide.