Do you really want to know the truth? I don't think so.

[Laser Eyes]

That's right. You don't want to know. The more I read this forum the more I realize that the vast majority of people - and that means almost every person who uses this forum - simply does not want to know the truth. Sure you may have intellectual curiosity about certain questions - Is there a creator? What is the nature of God? What is the purpose of life? - but do you really want to know the answer to these questions?

What if someone knocked on your door and said they had the answers to the questions mentioned above and the other great questions about life and they offered to tell you everything you wanted to know about God and the purpose of life? What would you do? Would you invite them in? Naturally you wouldn't know at first whether they really knew the truth or were just full of crap. But would you be prepared to spend time to investigate it? How much of your time would be worth the chance of learning the answers to these questions? But let's remember that with knowledge comes responsiblity. What if learning the truth meant that you would have to drastically change the way you live? Would you still want to know?

I think that very few of you would be willing to spend even one minute of your time to find out whether this person who said they had the answers was telling the truth. I think that you don't want to know the truth. You guys have shown that you will believe what you want to believe. You will believe whatever allows you to continue acting the way you want to, lest some inconvenient truth be thrust upon you.

 

[Katazia]

Laser Eyes,

Your opinions are simply wrong.

Kat

 

[Ozymandias]

I can understand the theory behind Laser Eye's philosophy, in the sense that there are many people who don't really want to know the truth..

..although I'm not really sure what I would do, should that situation come upon me. Probably just give the guy an incredulous look and ask him the meaning of life.

 

[Katazia]

Talk is cheap and ideas and imagination flow easily - evidence, however, is the real crux. And if any ever appeared I'm sure the pope and his menagerie would be screaming it from every rooftop long before any bozo knocked on my door. But that couldn't happen anyway since I live in a protected community with a private security force where door callers aren't permitted. But I guess that wasn't the point.

 

[Persol]

I live in a protected community with a private security force...
Damn, nice.

 

[James R]

What if someone knocked on your door and said they had the answers to the questions mentioned above and the other great questions about life and they offered to tell you everything you wanted to know about God and the purpose of life? What would you do? Would you invite them in?

Probably not. There are so many people who claim to know all the answers to the Big Questions. But if they really knew, why are they turning up on my doorstep? Why don't they go to the media, and spread their message as widely as possible? I think they're just telling me what they believe, and thy're arrogant enough to think that whatever they believe must be the only answer. Usually, I find that these people haven't considered a range of possibilities.

Also, how does anybody come up with the answers to these questions? Do they have a hot line to God? I seriously doubt it, unless they can show me good evidence for that up-front.

Naturally you wouldn't know at first whether they really knew the truth or were just full of crap. But would you be prepared to spend time to investigate it?

Yes, about 30 seconds on my doorstep, <b>before</b> I invite them in. That's usually long enough to tell.

How much of your time would be worth the chance of learning the answers to these questions?

Depends on how long understanding will take.

But let's remember that with knowledge comes responsiblity. What if learning the truth meant that you would have to drastically change the way you live? Would you still want to know?

What kind of drastic change are we talking about here? I'd want to know what I was letting myself in for.

You guys have shown that you will believe what you want to believe. You will believe whatever allows you to continue acting the way you want to, lest some inconvenient truth be thrust upon you.

That's human nature for you. You do it too - admit it.

 

[Aaron Rider]

Yes, I do want to know the truth. However, (this may be unpopular) all the truth I'll ever need is written in the Bible.

Another point: some people (not me) don't even really believe in truth; they think truth is different for different people, depending on what they believe. To me, this isn't truth at all.

--Aaron

 

[Laser Eyes]

Laser Eyes,

Your opinions are simply wrong.

Kat

I'm wrong am I? Let's test it. Have you ever heard anyone in the street or has anyone ever come to your home preaching some kind of religion? Did you say to them: "I'm interested in learning the truth. I don't know if what you say is true or not but I am willing to listen and consider it." Since you say my opinions are wrong then this must be what you do every time or you already know the truth, which is it?

 

[Laser Eyes]

Probably not. There are so many people who claim to know all the answers to the Big Questions. But if they really knew, why are they turning up on my doorstep? Why don't they go to the media, and spread their message as widely as possible? I think they're just telling me what they believe, and thy're arrogant enough to think that whatever they believe must be the only answer. Usually, I find that these people haven't considered a range of possibilities.

Did you know that Jesus and his disciples preached door to door? That's right. Maybe God wants the truth disseminated by person to person teaching. You are quick to judge if you think anyone who says they have the truth is being arrogant. Suppose someone really did know the answers to the questions I mentioned above. Are you saying they should keep it to themselves lest anyone think them arrogant? I agree that people who claim to have the answers usually have not considered a range of possibilities. But one day there may be someone whose logic you can't poke a hole in.

Also, how does anybody come up with the answers to these questions? Do they have a hot line to God? I seriously doubt it, unless they can show me good evidence for that up-front.

Good thinking. You should ask for evidence. And if they can't show it you can kick them to the kerb. I don't think God would insult the intelligence that he gave us by asking us to have blind faith.

Yes, about 30 seconds on my doorstep, <b>before</b> I invite them in. That's usually long enough to tell.

So you can tell in 30 seconds whether someone knows what they are talking about or are full of crap. You must be even smarter than me because it takes me a full minute.

Depends on how long understanding will take.

Really? How long would be too much of your time to learn the answers to the great questions about life? You must have some very pressing business to take care of!

What kind of drastic change are we talking about here? I'd want to know what I was letting myself in for.

This is exactly what I am talking about and I want to thank you for with this quote you have proven the very point I made in my first post in this thread. You don't want to know the truth if it would upset the way you live. You like what you are doing and you don't want God to interfere in your life. Does it really matter what changes you would have to make? Think of the person you love more than anyone else. What if you had to run a certain distance to save their life? Would you do it depending on how far it was?

That's human nature for you. You do it too - admit it.

It's a natural assumption to make and I don't blame you for making it. But don't you think it's possible for someone to want to know the truth badly enough that they will accept it when they see it no matter the consequences?

 

[Raithere]

Is there a creator? What is the nature of God? What is the purpose of life? - but do you really want to know the answer to these questions?

Sure. What are they?

But leave your assumptions at the door and be ready to support those notions that you do have; we'll be asking "how?" and "why?" and "where's your evidence?" I would also suggest you take some time to research the threads a bit because we've been through all of the most common arguments and quite a few unusual ones. After you've been through them a few times they're easy to spot.

What if someone knocked on your door and said they had the answers to the questions mentioned above and the other great questions about life and they offered to tell you everything you wanted to know about God and the purpose of life? What would you do? Would you invite them in?

Actually, providing I have time, I rather enjoy inviting Jehovah's Witnesses in and confounding them with a rather simple series of questions.

I think that very few of you would be willing to spend even one minute of your time to find out whether this person who said they had the answers was telling the truth.

See, it's assumptions like this that will get you in trouble. Most of us here have spent quite a large amount of time examining various arguments. What does it matter if it's a different person giving the same old argument? If a different salesman tries to sell you the same piece of shit car as the last salesman do you reconsider buying it?

~Raithere

 

[Katazia]

Laser,

I'm wrong am I? Let's test it. Have you ever heard anyone in the street or has anyone ever come to your home preaching some kind of religion? Did you say to them: "I'm interested in learning the truth. I don't know if what you say is true or not but I am willing to listen and consider it." Since you say my opinions are wrong then this must be what you do every time or you already know the truth, which is it?

I have been exploring religion for over 50 years. I have invited JWs in my home several times and attended Kingdom Hall sessions. I have had several sets of Mormons in my home and had weekly sessions with them as well as attending their services. I have attended Catholic, Methodist and Baptist services as well as the more noisy Pentecostals. In addition I have attended several Church of Scientology courses. I have also delved into Buddhism, and Hinduism as well as several aspects of spiritualism and the occult. I have seven variations of the bible which I have read and studied over the years. I have also been known to confront Salvation Army preachers in the street as well as taken part in numerous religious discussion groups.

I have been seeking ‘truth’, whatever that means, all my life and there is no avenue that I will not explore – but with a sense of objectivity and pragmatism.

My overwhelming conclusion is that religion is total crap and a complete waste of everyone’s time.

Do you have anything new to offer?

Kat

 

[Katazia]

Persol,

I live in a protected community with a private security force...
Damn, nice.

LOL – and very quiet and peaceful.

Kat

 

[mrmufin]

Did you know that Jesus and his disciples preached door to door?

I wonder if that had anything to do with the lack of radio, television, telephone and internet access 2,000 years ago...

That's right. Maybe God wants the truth disseminated by person to person teaching.

Then maybe all those televangelists should free up the airwaves...

You are quick to judge if you think anyone who says they have the truth is being arrogant.

But perhaps that quickness to judge is based - at least in part - on past experience, wherein so many who've claimed to have the one and only broadband connection to Absolute Truth(tm) have been demonstrated to be full of crap...

Suppose someone really did know the answers to the questions I mentioned above. Are you saying they should keep it to themselves lest anyone think them arrogant?

Maybe not, but the door-to-door process seems pathetically inefficient.

I agree that people who claim to have the answers usually have not considered a range of possibilities. But one day there may be someone whose logic you can't poke a hole in.

And that's when I'll subscribe to their system of beliefs; but not prior. Nitpick: I'm not out to "poke holes" in logic, but rather to expose a lack of logic.


Regards,
mrmufin

 

[Laser Eyes]

Sure. What are they?

Let's deal with that in another thread.

Actually, providing I have time, I rather enjoy inviting Jehovah's Witnesses in and confounding them with a rather simple series of questions.

I'd like to know what those "confounding" questions are.

See, it's assumptions like this that will get you in trouble. Most of us here have spent quite a large amount of time examining various arguments. What does it matter if it's a different person giving the same old argument? If a different salesman tries to sell you the same piece of shit car as the last salesman do you reconsider buying it?

It's one thing to be intellectually curious about something and spend time discussing it. That's what I see on this forum. It's another thing to have a heart that is searching for answers. Are you deeply troubled by the condition of the world? Do you tear your self up about the pain suffered by strangers in a distant land? Do you want answers no matter the consequences, no matter what it might mean for you personally?

 

[Laser Eyes]

My overwhelming conclusion is that religion is total crap and a complete waste of everyone’s time.

Do you have anything new to offer?

The only thing I can suggest is that you go back to basics. Forget about religion. Forget about everything you have learned about God and the religions of this world. Become a student of the human condition. Think about what humans do, how we live, what we are good at.

We humans are designers. We design things and we build them. We design and build bridges and cities and houses and watches and clothes and a billion other things. When we design something we do it to achieve a certain purpose. We wouldn't try to live in a bridge and we wouldn't try to use a shoe to tell the time. Everything is designed to function in a certain way.

If we humans were designed what were we designed for? Try to think about this question without considering whether there is a God who created us. Just study the human condition and find out the answer to the question - What is it that humans were designed to do? Answer this question just as you would answer it for some article that we made. For example if you looked at a watch you could say things like - it was designed to be worn on your wrist, to tell the time, to be mobile and so on. When you can answer this question you will be one step closer to the truth.

Let me give you two examples to illustrate what I am suggesting you do. I venture to say that it is apparent that man was designed to live on land and eat food. We breath the air, we do not have gills or webbed hands and feet like fish. We were not designed to live in the water. We have a digestive system obviously made to take in food and convert it into energy and living tissue. These are a couple of examples deduced from a physical examination of man. But I am suggesting you go much farther than that. Examine the mental and spiritual aspects of man as well as the physical. What was the mind of man designed to achieve? What is the spiritual side of man designed to achieve? Remember, just accept for the sake of the exercise that man was designed by someone, never mind how or why. Your job is to answer for what purpose.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

We were not designed.

 

[tablariddim]

QUOTE:
What if someone knocked on your door and said they had the answers to the questions mentioned above and the other great questions about life and they offered to tell you everything you wanted to know about God and the purpose of life? What would you do? Would you invite them in?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But surely, this is what Jehova's Witnesses do? I never let them in and no, I never want to try and convince them that they are wrong, because I don't believe in any alternative and I don't have the answer.

I'm pretty damn' shure that I wouldn't let anyone that's going to try and brainwash me into my house, but If I'd met some stranger somewhere that seemed charismatic, enlightened and genuine, they might tempt me to sit around and listen to them and maybe debate certain points and at the end of the day, if the person really got through to me and if (this is very important) I was going through some crisis or depression at the time, then it's feasible that I could let the person inspire me to try some of their suggestions.

It's a matter of allowing yourself to be open to new ideas, with enough hunger for 'the truth' to allow yourself to swallow the bait. Personally, I don't swallow I spit.

 

[Raithere]

I'd like to know what those "confounding" questions are.

As Jehovah's Witnesses tend to refer to the Bible as proof, I generally ask them to verify the authenticity of their positions as well at that of the Bible itself. Towards their 'end of days' revelations I'll point out the vagueness of the predictions and the inaccuracy of the 'signs'. For more philosophically oriented positions a quick dip into metaphysics and epistemology usually suffices.

It's one thing to be intellectually curious about something and spend time discussing it. That's what I see on this forum. It's another thing to have a heart that is searching for answers.

As I see it it's a matter of being intellectually honest. If one's search for truth is governed by one's emotions then the 'truth' will be that which satisfies the heart rather than that which is rationally sound. The 'heart' is not a good measure of accuracy and the mind needs to be trained for such.

Are you deeply troubled by the condition of the world? Do you tear your self up about the pain suffered by strangers in a distant land?

I wouldn't say that I 'tear myself up' but I am empathetic. However, I don't see what this has to do with 'truth'.

Do you want answers no matter the consequences, no matter what it might mean for you personally?

Yes. The problem is that there are very few concise and truthful answers. Real answers tend to be rather complicated or inconclusive.

~Raithere

 

[Laser Eyes]

But surely, this is what Jehova's Witnesses do? I never let them in and no, I never want to try and convince them that they are wrong, because I don't believe in any alternative and I don't have the answer.

Yes, it is what the Witnesses do but I was just using the doorknocking as an example. It doesn't really matter where you meet the person.

I'm pretty damn' shure that I wouldn't let anyone that's going to try and brainwash me into my house

Are you worried you can be brainwashed? Why do think you are susceptible to brainwashing? You aren't weak minded are you? Don't you think you have the mental capacity to reason with someone and reject ideas that you find illogical?

 

[Laser Eyes]

As I see it it's a matter of being intellectually honest. If one's search for truth is governed by one's emotions then the 'truth' will be that which satisfies the heart rather than that which is rationally sound. The 'heart' is not a good measure of accuracy and the mind needs to be trained for such.

Yes, I agree. It is important to be intellectually honest. I find most people fail that test.

I wouldn't say that I 'tear myself up' but I am empathetic. However, I don't see what this has to do with 'truth'.

It's a measure of how badly you want to know the answers to the questions about the world.

The problem is that there are very few concise and truthful answers. Real answers tend to be rather complicated or inconclusive.

The world is indeed full of lies and so are most religions. But I don't think that the real answers need be complicated or inconclusive. People who try to mislead or don't know what they are talking about often make their answers sound complicated or inconclusive to disguise their real motives.