Do you believe?

[SetiAlpha6]

Luke 6:37-38 (New King James Version)
37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”

Are there any believers out there in Sciforumsland that really believe this anymore, if they ever truly did?

Please correct me if I am wrong here, but these are supposed to be the words of Jesus to begin with, right? But for some strange reason I get the feeling that very few Christians today actually believe in the things that Jesus taught here. Why might that be? Has Christianity moved beyond the need to agree with the “Son of God” in the creation of doctrine?

Personally, I do believe in the thoughts that are presented in these verses. They appear, to me at least, to be a fairly good basis for living one’s life. There are worse things, are there not?

But again, do Christians actually believe these teachings of Jesus or something else instead that is taught by someone else? Who are they really following today anyway?

If the Bible is accurate…

Jesus said… “Judge not, and you shall not be judged.”
Jesus said… “Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned.”
Jesus said… “Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”
Jesus said… “Give, and it will be given to you:”

But most Christians disregard these thoughts almost on a daily, if not hourly, basis when they routinely judge and condemn their friends, family, me, and anyone else around them. It can become so thoroughly imbedded in their way of thinking that they can become almost totally oblivious to what they are doing to others in their own minds. They seem to think that they can actually sin and disobey God anytime and everytime without condemnation. Few realize that, according to the Bible, this is exactly the very same thing that the snake told Adam and Eve in the beginning. According to that account, this same little "lie" caused the fall of the entire human race. So, who are they following?

Regardless of what else they believe, according to this, if a person lives in this way and does these four things then they will not be judged or condemned by God and will instead be forgiven for their own sins. Not only that, but they will even be blessed and be given many things by God.

Why?

Because Jesus also said… “For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”

This seems like a pretty good and equitable approach to life to me. It seems pretty fair. But I suppose I must be really out to lunch, or dinner, or at least out to a tiny midnight snack. Would this not have eliminated much if not all of the evil that has been done in this world, in the name of Christ?

Of course this assumes that God exists, which, last I checked, cannot be scientifically proved or disproved. Sorry!

So anyway, do you believe or not?

 

[Enmos]

You mean whether or not I believe this: “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.” ?

Not particularly no.. if anything it's more the other way around it seems.
Not that I am saying that one shouldn't adhere to: Judge not, Condemn not, Forgive and Give..

On a side note: It seems that if anyone is only adhering to these things solely because he or she will be rewarded for it, is kind of a shortcut God would not appreciate.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

You mean whether or not I believe this: “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.” ?

Not particularly no.. if anything it's more the other way around it seems.
Not that I am saying that one shouldn't adhere to: Judge not, Condemn not, Forgive and Give..

On a side note: It seems that if anyone is only adhering to these things solely because he or she will be rewarded for it, is kind of a shortcut God would not appreciate.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I understand that reality is often quite different than what these scriptures teach, which would indicate to me that the ideas presented in these verses are likely false.

As for doing things solely for a reward. Is that really a bad thing? Is it better to work for your own wages or kill your God to get what you want? I have a job and I work to support my family. I am hopefully a blessing to the people I work for and also to my own family. It works out pretty well, most of the time. Not sure how this is a bad thing, but let me know?

Thanks!

 

[sandy]

I have to watch how I respond because skinwalker infracts/warns me everytime I respond to a Christian question.

I believe and try to live by those verses. Christians are not perfect. They are human and they fall short. Ideally we would be angellic little creatures, but we're not. We're real. We get mad--especially about things like terrorism, criminal immigration, cruelty, etc...

It's especially hard not to judge not because we are constantly judging/making judgement calls in our minds.

I have "judged and condemned", but I have also "forgiven and given" 1000 times more than I "judged/condemned".

Interesting topic. And SOOO much more I could explain but I don't feel like getting banned.

 

[Enmos]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I understand that reality is often quite different than what these scriptures teach, which would indicate to me that the ideas presented in these verses are likely false.

As for doing things solely for a reward. Is that really a bad thing? Is it better to work for your own wages or kill your God to get what you want? I have a job and I work to support my family. I am hopefully a blessing to the people I work for and also to my own family. It works out pretty well, most of the time. Not sure how this is a bad thing, but let me know?

Thanks!

It's a bad thing because it is deceiving. People that do good things just because God says 'if you do this you are welcome in paradise' are not doing these things because they want to do good, they do these things to get into paradise..
I am not sure what the word for it is, but it comes close to hypocrite.

One can do all of these good things without the idea of a God that wants you to do them.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

It's a bad thing because it is deceiving. People that do good things just because God says 'if you do this you are welcome in paradise' are not doing these things because they want to do good, they do these things to get into paradise..
I am not sure what the word for it is, but it comes close to hypocrite.

One can do all of these good things without the idea of a God that wants you to do them.

I agree completely that what you say CAN certainly be true.

But I am not sure that this MUST be true. The thoughts and actions of men are not always logical or consistent within their own world view.

Thanks.

 

[Enmos]

I agree completely that what you say CAN certainly be true.

But I am not sure that this MUST be true. The thoughts and actions of men are not always logical or consistent within their own world view.

Thanks.

What do you mean exactly with "The thoughts and actions of men are not always logical or consistent within their own world view" ?
You mean people do stuff that contradicts their own world view ? And how does this relate to the topic ? (Just asking so I understand what you meant )

 

[SetiAlpha6]

What do you mean exactly with "The thoughts and actions of men are not always logical or consistent within their own world view" ?
You mean people do stuff that contradicts their own world view ? And how does this relate to the topic ? (Just asking so I understand what you meant )

Sorry!

I am just trying to say that people very often do not think about all of the possible ramifications of an action, either good or bad or reward, before they proceed in carrying it out. They should! But they often don't. They just see a need and try to fill it regardless of the loss or reward. I bet you have done this, have you not? In this way, perhaps, a person is capable of doing something truely good in spite of their world view or hope of reward.

Does that make any sense?

 

[superluminal]

Of course this assumes that God exists, which, last I checked, cannot be scientifically proved or disproved. Sorry!

The god of the bible has been scientifically proven to not exist. The attributes and actions of this particular god mean that, in the realm of natural (knowable) phenomena, the biblical god does indeed not exist.

If you say it is outside of nature, then science has nothing to do with it and it's meaningless to hypothesize about it (since it's unknowable).

So anyway, do you believe or not?

Not in the slightest.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

The god of the bible has been scientifically proven to not exist. The attributes and actions of this particular god mean that, in the realm of natural (knowable) phenomena, the biblical god does indeed not exist.

I have never seen this proven "scientifically". I have seen attempts at this using logic but never using the scientific method. But, perhaps you know more about this than I do. Can you help me out here?

If you say it is outside of nature, then science has nothing to do with it and it's meaningless to hypothesize about it (since it's unknowable).

What if I think that there might be a God but that the Bible does not correctly describe Him?

What if I say that I don't know? Is that a legitimate "scientific" viewpoint?

Thanks.

 

[spidergoat]

To be a Christian seems to mean you do what you want. If it's biblical you feel good, if it's not, you feel like a sinner, which is also biblical. They seem to inhabit a virtual world of idealism over reality. As long as you identify with someone who exhibits true goodness, that's as good as being good yourself.

 

[superluminal]

I have never seen this proven "scientifically". I have seen attempts at this using logic but never using the scientific method. But, perhaps you know more about this than I do. Can you help me out here?

Sure.

The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5

Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is at least 12 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31

Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7

"There were giants in the earth in those days." Well, I suppose it's good to know that. But why is there no archaeological evidence for the existence of these giants? 6:4

Isaiah, with a little help from God, makes the sun move backwards ten degrees. Now that's quite a trick. All at once, the earth stopped spinning and then reversed its direction of rotation. Or maybe the sun traveled around the earth in those days! 20:11

"The earth ... shall be stable, that it be not moved." It doesn't spin on its axis or travel about the sun. 16:30

"In those days ... the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall." Of course this is nonsense. The billions of stars will never fall to earth and the moon does not produce its own light. 13:24-25

No, this is not a god of physics and science. I'm sure you can find other instances of god violating or ignoring physical law. All this means is that the god of the bible is certainly shown to not exist, if by "exist" we mean as a real thing.

What if I think that there might be a God but that the Bible does not correctly describe Him?

What if I say that I don't know? Is that a legitimate "scientific" viewpoint?
Thanks.

Of course! Why not? Science is just one big "I don't know, let's go find out!" anyway.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Of course! Why not? Science is just one big "I don't know, let's go find out!" anyway.

Thank You!

 

[SetiAlpha6]

To be a Christian seems to mean you do what you want. If it's biblical you feel good, if it's not, you feel like a sinner, which is also biblical. They seem to inhabit a virtual world of idealism over reality. As long as you identify with someone who exhibits true goodness, that's as good as being good yourself.

Yes, it does tend to wipe out the need for any personal responsibility for your actions. Flip Wilson used to say “The Devil made me do it, Honey”. And that is exactly what some Christians teach. They actually teach that when they sin it is not them doing the sinning. How convenient! They jettison self-responsibility all the time. Now please, how would that work in any real justice system?

Thanks

 

[sandy]

Yes, it does tend to wipe out the need for any personal responsibility for your actions. Flip Wilson used to say “The Devil made me do it, Honey”. And that is exactly what some Christians teach. They actually teach that when they sin it is not them doing the sinning. How convenient! They jettison self-responsibility all the time. Now please, how would that work in any real justice system? Thanks

That's odd because the Christians I know are the best at self-responsibility. They take responsibility for ALL their thoughts, beliefs, actions, etc... I don't know anyone who believes they don't choose their own sin.

 

[Enmos]

Sorry!

I am just trying to say that people very often do not think about all of the possible ramifications of an action, either good or bad or reward, before they proceed in carrying it out. They should! But they often don't. They just see a need and try to fill it regardless of the loss or reward. I bet you have done this, have you not? In this way, perhaps, a person is capable of doing something truely good in spite of their world view or hope of reward.

Does that make any sense?

Yes thank you

But that means that they can do something really good by accident..
I'd say God wouldn't be too impressed with that. To really do something good you will have to mean it for it to count.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Yes thank you

But that means that they can do something really good by accident..
I'd say God wouldn't be too impressed with that. To really do something good you will have to mean it for it to count.

You are very wise! And I agree!

But I also have seen many people who actually can transcend their own Christian world view in the same way in which a belief in Evolution and the survival of the fittest can be transcended by people who are determined to do so. They might still hold it as true but refuse to allow themselves to be ruled by it in their actions. Men are not always self-consistent in their belief systems. In fact, I truely wonder if any are. I am sure I am not!

Have you ever seen this?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

That's odd because the Christians I know are the best at self-responsibility. They take responsibility for ALL their thoughts, beliefs, actions, etc... I don't know anyone who believes they don't choose their own sin.

Well,

There are some people on this very forum that seem to think this. And it comes directly from the writings of Paul in the Bible. When I have a few minutes I will look it up for you.

Thanks

 

[Enmos]

You are very wise! And I agree!

But I also have seen many people who actually can transcend their own Christian world view in the same way in which a belief in Evolution and the survival of the fittest can be transcended by people who are determined to do so. They might still hold it as true but refuse to allow themselves to be ruled by it in their actions. Men are not always self-consistent in their belief systems. In fact, I truely wonder if any are. I am sure I am not!

Have you ever seen this?

I'm not sure if I have seen this.. but the question arises "Do you really still need any God then ?".

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I'm not sure if I have seen this.. but the question arises "Do you really still need any God then ?".

That is a fair question.

Perhaps people are different from each other and "need" different things or different belief systems to help them make some sense out of this life. Perhaps many people are looking for a sense of community and are just looking for a way to live and survive in this world.

As for me, I do not currently understand how life can exist without a creator of some kind. I have looked at arguments regarding this topic and so far have found them all to be faith and ideology based. Even the "science" ones. It seems to me like even science eventually reaches a place where it is no longer really science anymore, at least in any provable way, but instead becomes wishfull story telling and myth making. It is almost as though some of these people have a "need" for God not to exist.

If the Bible is not true but the possibility of the existence of God still remains then why would someone have any "need" for God not to exist?

Thanks