Do you agree with capital punishment?

[cosmictraveler]

Prosecutor Gary Lammers said the passage of time and the appeals court decision would have made it difficult to prove arson.

“We think it’s an appropriate resolution,” he said. “The fact that he served 21-and-a-half years in prison, I don’t think necessarily makes him a victim. If anything, it holds him accountable — if nothing else — for some of the things that he’s responsible for through this entire sordid case.”

Toddler's family livid over deal
Members of the Collins family glared at Richey during Monday’s court session.

Robert Collins, the father of the toddler who died, wishes his daughter “could appeal her death and come back to life,” according to a statement read by victim advocate Shelly Price.

“The situation surrounding the death of my little girl has haunted me for 21 years,” Collins’ said in his statement. “The unthinkable reality of her choking, crawling, crying, and her little lungs filling with smoke has been etched in my mind since her death. It’s an ongoing nightmare.

“I will never have closure now that the outcome has changed.”

Valerie Binkley, Cynthia’s aunt, told the judge she had prepared a six-page statement, but was too emotional to read it. She then turned to Richey and angrily pointed at him.

“I want you to know you fooled nobody — not me, not that baby, not any of these people,” she said. “You will fry in hell.”

Richey had been convicted of charges accusing him of setting a fire at the Columbus Grove apartment complex in June 1986 to get even with his former girlfriend, who lived in the same building as the child who died.

MSNBC

 

[Syzygys]

This is from today:

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/watercooler/watercooler_article.aspx?storyid=85871

Texas man kills GF, then tries to eat her, but calmly calls 911 while doing so....

Anyway, we got stuck here with the anti-CP crowd not being able to show even one good argument. So let's move forward and make a list of what other kind of crimes should get death penalty. Somebody had a pretty good list here, let me look.

Ok, here it is from Defiant:

By the way I would give death sentence for other crimes too, not just for murder. Here is a quick list coming to my mind:

- any president who takes the country to unnecessery war on false premises
- serial rapist, if raped more than 5 different persons (see, I am human and up to 4, I consider it a mistake)
- treason, specially in wartime or if human loss occured because of it
- spying, specially in wartime or if human loss occured because of it
- serious security breach or providing dangerous technology to outsiders without permission (let's say selling a mininuke)
- CEOs who violate their oath and knowingly cause huge losses to the company (stupidity is no excuse!) including employees' 401K (Kenny boy, here you go)
- for those who comit heinous crimes not resulting in death, but where the value of loss extend a person's life (let's say an arsonist got 5 people burnt really badly)
- damage to infrastructure where the damages are very high (blowing up a dam, arsonist burning down a town, etc.)

Treason and spying should be obvious choices. The others are good choices too. Here are additions from me:

- Kidnapping when kidnapped person kept in captivity for a longer period of time and was sexually/physically abused.
- Incredible and prolonged cruelty to animals.
- Knowingly spreading a deadly disease. (read up on typhoid Mary, she infected 47 people while being a cook)

Add to the list your choices...

For lazy people, about Mary:

"She was isolated for three years at a hospital located on North Brother Island, and then released on the condition she would not work with food. However, she assumed the pseudonym "Mary Brown", returned to cooking, and in 1915 infected 25 people while working as a cook at New York's Sloan Hospital; two of those infected died. "

 

[superluminal]

Go kucf yourself idiot, you are on ignore...

Edit: I selfmoderated, because I know moderators are not fair. This self proclaimed idiot can call others in names instead of an argument, but we have to take it up in our ass?? I guess it is the same fairness what anti-CPs apply to victims. There is no victims' rights, just criminals' rights...

Except, little boy, you started it back in post #282:

Syzygys:

Just checking back, I don't see any new arguments...

“ Originally Posted by superluminal
Death is not a punishment to anyone but the family of the dead. ”

OK, so there is no problem with CP, since it is not a punishment. What an idiot...

Pretty funny huh?

 

[superluminal]

Not a punishment? Ask a guy being strapped to an electric chair with pads over his eyes so they don't explode and fly out of his skull if he feels like he's getting off without punishment. Or the guy trying to hold his breath in a futile attempt to avoid the poisoness gas that has filed the room. Or even the guy being strapped to a gurney with a needle in his arm, knowing he'll never wake up again.

And what exactly is the lesson the killer is suppposed to take away from this "punishment"? If you're reincarnated, don't be bad?

Should a doctor ever prescribe a medication when he knows that there's always the chance that the medication could induce anaphalactic shock and kill the patient? Or should he wait until the infection gets to the point that the patient will die without treatment to avoid the possibility that his treatment would ever cause a death in someone that wouldn't have died anyway?

Should treatment could ever be offered for non-fatal illnesses since an error could occur that could result in the death of an innocent person?

And?

Clearly that's absurd.

Good. I agree.

Ethics does not require perfection. It does not require inaction. It requires that you make your best effort to avoid an error. Especially one that results in death.

Good. I agree with that also.

So tell me, in killing another human in retribution for a prior killing, who are you saving from cancer? Or lung disease? Or heart disease? Or progressive blindness? I'm willing to take the tiny chances that (voluntarily!) come with medical treatment. No one is forced to get treatment. But you on the other hand are willing to do something that has zero benefit to me except that there's a slight chance that I might be killed accidentally because you need blood revenge.

Brilliant.

You all must think that because I don't want to pile murder on top of murder (nor does the rest of what we think of as the developed world) that I must be in favor of murderers. How fucking stupid. I know full well that most convicted murderers are guilty. Most. But a non-significant portion are not. Check the release stats yourselves. Lock them away. If no evidence ever comes to light that they are innocent, they rot. Done.

And don't try to tell me about costs. What percentage of all criminals get executed every year? Rediculously small? And the differential cost of not executing them is what? Rediculously small?

Right.

Clearly some here are of the mind that it's "cool" to murder people for fun, like this little kid:

Syzygys
I agree. A nice, pay-per-view Friday night special that can be rented 3 months later!

Besides having zero need to put anyone at risk of wrongfully being murdered by the state, the ethical backlash on societies that insist on it can't be underestimated. We seem to have a lack of that ethical reasoning on this board.

Blood vengeance. Plain and simple. And we're one of the last developed nations that do it. Welcome to the Middle East, much of Africa and China.

Fucking backward savages.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation

 

[madanthonywayne]

And what exactly is the lesson the killer is suppposed to take away from this "punishment"? If you're reincarnated, don't be bad?

The lesson is that society will not tolerate murder. Commit the ultimate crime, suffer the ultimate penalty. Plus, the murderer gets to experience a small taste of what he gave to his victim.

But you on the other hand are willing to do something that has zero benefit to me except that there's a slight chance that I might be killed accidentally because you need blood revenge.

Zero benefit? How many convicted murderers go on to commit new murders either while in prison or when they get out? I wonder how that number compares with the number of people wrongfully executed.

When a murderer is executed we know one thing for sure, this guy will not kill again. And execution conveys how seriously we take the crime of murder.

You all must think that because I don't want to pile murder on top of murder (nor does the rest of what we think of as the developed world) that I must be in favor of murderers. How fucking stupid.

How fucking arrogant. First you put words in our mouth, then you assume anyone with an opinion different than yours is stupid.

Blood vengeance. Plain and simple. And we're one of the last developed nations that do it. Welcome to the Middle East, much of Africa and China.

Fucking backward savages.

The left always claims it's the right that has no respect for other cultures, yet there you go calling the US a bunch of backwards savages for agreeing with the Middle East, Africa, and China on a particular issue. Heaven forbid we agree with those backward savages on anything! Simply showing a map that reveals that Africans hold a certain opinion is enough to debunk it in your book? Nice. Very nice.

 

[superluminal]

The lesson is that society will not tolerate murder. Commit the ultimate crime, suffer the ultimate penalty. Plus, the murderer gets to experience a small taste of what he gave to his victim.

Good lesson. I wonder how long it will be until we reach the low levels of violent crime that other nations enjoy, by killing off our criminals. Oh, wait, they have these low violent crime levels without CP! We must not be killing enough.

Zero benefit? How many convicted murderers go on to commit new murders either while in prison or when they get out? I wonder how that number compares with the number of people wrongfully executed.

Comparing apples to oranges. Interesting. I'm no more proposing letting violent criminals walk the streets than you are. You want death, I want permanent imprisonment. It's kinda hard to compare those criminals that do get let out with the dead ones, don't you think?

When a murderer is executed we know one thing for sure, this guy will not kill again.

Right.

And execution conveys how seriously we take the crime of murder.

We need executions to... to... demonstrate... Ha! Hahahaha!

How fucking arrogant. First you put words in our mouth, then you assume anyone with an opinion different than yours is stupid.

How fucking blind. The first ones here to start denigrating anyone were you pro-CP boys when a counter opinion came up. I don't think that people with different opinions are stupid. Only the ones with stupid opinions. I'm just debating this because it's interesting. I actually don't give a flying blue fuck what you think.

The left always claims it's the right that has no respect for other cultures, yet there you go calling the US a bunch of backwards savages for agreeing with the Middle East, Africa, and China on a particular issue.

And we/they are. It's clearly stupid reasoning of some sort when you keep going along a path that is proven not to work, yet you keep touting it's advantages. That's called STUPID FUCKING BACKWARD SAVAGERY.

Heaven forbid we agree with those backward savages on anything!

Yes. Especially as demonstrably stupid as thinking CP does one fucking thing to deter crime.

Simply showing a map that reveals that Africans hold a certain opinion is enough to debunk it in your book? Nice. Very nice.

Err... nooo... Its a fucking point of reference, genius.

And the colors are pretty. Didn't think of that did ya?

:wtf:

 

[flameofanor5]

A guy raped and murdered a little boy...And they wont put him to death because they are afraid that he'll suffer..

 

[superluminal]

A guy raped and murdered a little boy...And they wont put him to death because they are afraid that he'll suffer..

Really? Think it's that simple do ya?

 

[Incriminating Convoy]

A guy raped and murdered a little boy...And they wont put him to death because they are afraid that he'll suffer..

A bullet to the head isn't suffering.

 

[mountainhare]

As if a rapist won't suffer in a high security prison. I wonder how many ass rapings he would receive per day?

 

[madanthonywayne]

Good lesson. I wonder how long it will be until we reach the low levels of violent crime that other nations enjoy, by killing off our criminals. Oh, wait, they have these low violent crime levels without CP! We must not be killing enough.

The three nations with the lowest murder rates all have the death penalty. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Japan. That's right, JAPAN. Indeed, these nations are at the bottom of most crime statistics.

South Africa, on the other hand, has pretty much the highest levels of all crime, yet they do not have the death penalty. Even worse, crime rates increased in South Africa when the death penalty was repealed!

Comparing apples to oranges. Interesting. I'm no more proposing letting violent criminals walk the streets than you are. You want death, I want permanent imprisonment. It's kinda hard to compare those criminals that do get let out with the dead ones, don't you think?

Criminals that are alive often end up getting out of prison. Furthermore, once the left manages to get the death penalty repealed, they start trying to get life in prison abolished.

From a story about the terrorists convicted of mass murder in Spain:

The judges sentenced the men to tens of thousands of years in prison, but the men will serve no more than 40, the maximum penalty under Spanish law.

and how about Germany?

The German "justice" system just handed down a sentence on the first terrorist convicted in the murder of 3000 people on 9-11. The maximum sentence of 15 years was imposed on Mounir el-Motassadeq.

MAXIMUM OF 15 YEARS? That works out to 43.8 hours per murder!

No wonder the Germans have such a high crime rate. 3000 counts of accessory to first degree murder gives 15 years? And they criticize *our* justice system? http://www.tinyvital.com/BlogArchives/000091.html

The Left is against punishment, period. You say now "oh, we'll put them away forever" but once you get that, you move on to the next goal: Abolishing life in prison

So then we end up with mass murderers and terrorists getting out in 15 years. 15 YEARS!!! What the fuck. You call that justice? Those bastards should have been executed.

And we/they are. It's clearly stupid reasoning of some sort when you keep going along a path that is proven not to work, yet you keep touting it's advantages. That's called STUPID FUCKING BACKWARD SAVAGERY.

When you let mass murderers and terrorists get off with a 15 year sentence, that's called being a wimp without the stones to impose a just sentence.

 

[Tiassa]

The Left is against punishment, period. You say now "oh, we'll put them away forever" but once you get that, you move on to the next goal: Abolishing life in prison

So then we end up with mass murderers and terrorists getting out in 15 years. 15 YEARS!!! What the fuck. You call that justice? Those bastards should have been executed.

Hysterics don't help your cause. All you're reminding anyone is that people dedicated to state-sanctioned homicide are frothing, irrational, and, at best, quixotic.

In the meantime, they're lucky to have convicted him at all. After all, one thing nobody has been able to prove is that he knew what he was contributing to (e.g. 9/11).

 

[notamerican]

Absolutely. Especially with murder, but in other cases aswell. What better punishment is there for murder than murder. There are other cases aswell. Capital punishment saves money and resources.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Hysterics don't help your cause. All you're reminding anyone is that people dedicated to state-sanctioned homicide are frothing, irrational, and, at best, quixotic.

What hysterics? I'm making the point that while death is death, a life sentence often means much less.
In Germany:

The penalty for Mord is lifelong imprisonment, which is usually suspended after 17-18 years (15 years minimum) on a probation of 5 years

In Canada:

The maximum penalties for murder are:
1. first degree murder - mandatory life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for 25 years (can be paroled under the Faint-Hope Clause after 15 years imprisonment

Finland:

The only possible punishment for murder is life imprisonment. Typically, the prisoner will be pardoned by the Helsinki Court of Appeals after serving 12 to 14 years of his sentence

It seems that many consider a life sentence to mean about 15 years.

 

[Xx Dukes xX]

What is your definition of capitol punishment? I don't think it is right to execute a person for whatever crime they committed. That does not mean I don't support life in prison. I think death is juts a easy way out for a criminal. Put them in prison let them form relationships they don't want to form with things in their body they don't want there. ( Or Do ). They'll realize reallll... quick they messed up, and messed up big time.

 

[Syzygys]

What is your definition of capitol punishment?

When you have to live in the capitol, that is punishment. I prefer the countryside....

Otherwise your post makes no sense...

 

[flameofanor5]

No...that is wrong...they must serve a part to the community. Any crime, unless it is political is to be handled without executions.

Oh yeah, but it's totally okay that they rape and murder little kids who haven't done anything wrong. I don't really think people should go to jail for stealing something, if you steal something, they should make you pay back what you stole. Instead of making us pay for people who stole stuff from us. Too much taxing

 

[Frud11]

Capital punishment saves money and resources.

I think you might find that your statement does not stand up to analysis. Unless you mean instant execution--i.e. no delays, no expensive appeals, or waiting in jail, as soon as the sentence is handed down, a guard shoots the perp, right then and there. You know, like summary execution for speeding, or something. Or like coffee out of a can.

What kind of solution is jailing someone, for a crime?
What purpose do you think it serves, apart from keeping a "bad" person out of society (for a time)?

Why should people who "only" steal, not get locked up? Where should the threshold for a custodial sentence be, and who should decide?

Imprisonment is a medieval concept, which our modern society has adopted, but it wasn't all that long ago that all prisoners were chained, or shackled to a ring-bolt, in the floor or wall of a cell, and slept on straw, with no sanitation.

The medieval notion was usually aimed at "restorative justice", i.e., freedom was restored, once a suitable arrangement (often monetary) had been made. However this principle was usually only extended to "important" people, peasants weren't considered to be worth much. After all, the land and its people belonged to a king. If a peasant was thrown in a dungeon, it was generally a permanent arrangement.

So just how far have we come since the Reformation/Renaissance?

 

[Syzygys]

hehe, this morning I have just found another good argument for CP in the Sunday paper:

http://post-gazette.com/pg/08013/848525-85.stm

Convicted murderer escaped hiding in pig slop. The point is, that a conviction for LIFE apparently doesn't guarantee that the murderer will NEVER escape, thus he can still be a danger to society.

Dead people don't kill anyone, last time I checked, except in Tiassa's mind....

So let's summarize for those who missed the last few pages:

Just like the pro-CP side can not guarantee that innocent people can be convicted, the anti-CP side can not guarantee that for life prisoners:

- never kill (again)
- never order to kill (danger to society)
- never escape (danger to society)

I showed examples for all 3 in previous posts. Dead people don't kill, order to kill or escape.....

 

[Tiassa]

Convicted murderer escaped hiding in pig slop.

Try dealing with the relevant argument about the administration of prisons.

Here's a reminder, with links to the relevant posts: #1669767/267

So show all the examples you want, Syzygys. If you won't address the relevant points, your examples mean nothing.