Do Atheists accept...
- Thread starter Sufi
- Start date
Dreamwalker said:
What you call "physical laws" is what we can perceive of the laws of the system, through our five senses.
This universal system is in one way a universal energy and in onother way a universal consciousness. If there were no consciousness then the system would not result. If there were no energy then it would not be alive. So everything is made up of this universal energy and the universal consciousness.
If we could free our minds from the imagination of a God-out-there, we would then be able to see that what we call as the "universal energy" has been called as the power of Allah, and what we call as the "universal consciousness" has been called as the science of Allah in the past by all attainers of essence of the matter. We will then come to find this universal consciousness and power within ourselves with a free mind of a god who rules the world from above, and be able to observe the system as the system observes itself, without involvement of a second separate entity... when we will be developed enough to know why or how physical laws exist.
Dr Lou Natic said:
You know, rather, the beliefs of organized religions tend to be in conflict with the real world.
This is to me, basically because of misunderstandings based on social conditionings... and because of our failure to free our minds from a childish concept of a god who is expected to reward or punish people for their deeds. We fail to understand that taking care of the laws of nature is taking care of the laws of religion, as all spiritual masters explained us within the frame of religion the laws of the system that we all are subject to live ... that fire will burn and water will drown no matter how we believe or how we tend to be in conflict with the laws of nature.
Sorry to burst your bubble Sufi, but the universal consciousness you speak of is going waco!! cause this is not an "organized" universe fact is the universe is a chaotic phenomenon, witht the apperance of "order".
chaotic universe
Godless.
surenderer
Registered Senior Member
]
Sufi,
As a muslim then please explain this from the Koran:
[9.68] Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment.
Sufi,
As a muslim then please explain this from the Koran:
[9.68] Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment.
surenderer please explain this from the Koran: [9.68 said:
No separate god will be punishing or rewarding you. You will simply receive the return of your spiritual state without the interfrence of a separate god, same as it is in this world you get the return of what you do. You get the return of what you do as an effect of the universal system that operates without the involvment of a separate god. It works and no one can escape from it.
The Koran does not speak of a separate god. No reward, no punishment from a separate god. It is an imagination which holds the person back from the belief in ALLAH. It will remain in the world as an imagination.
"Most surely you will taste the painful punishment-, this you will be responded nothing save what you did" (37:39)
"(he will be said) Read your book; your own self is sufficient as a reckoner against you this day. " (17:14)
"Whatever misfortune happens to you, is because on the things your hands have wrought... " (42:30)
"And that man shall have nothing save only that for which he made effort. " (53:39)
It was not Allah Who oppressed them, but they oppressed their own souls. (30:9)
"He will indeed be successful who purifies his soul" (91:9)
"This is the reward of YOUR MISDEEDS. ALLAH is not unjust to his servants!" (22:10)
"And let every soul look to what he has sent forth for the morrow." (59:18)
"Have you seen those who have made GODs of their own fancies?" (25:43)
Do not associate with Allah ANY GOD, lest you sit down despised, neglected. (17:22)
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surenderer
Registered Senior Member
Sufi said:
Well this I dont deny Sufi but what that means is that the Prophet(pbuh) has sent down his message to you in which you can choose to follow or not to follow but if you choose not to then"it's your own fault"
Sufi, much of your philosophies have commonality with my own. However, in consideration of any known system, there are right ways of making use of them and there are wrong ways of making use of them. What determines their rightness or wrongness is dependent upon structure, and consequential functionality. If function that is not proper to the structure of a given system is performed, then the system begins to break down. This is a wrong usage of the system. Right usage of a system is proper function according to structure. This is the basis of morality, and is therefore not subjective, but rather objective, and determined by proper structure (that is, structure of the specie). Subjective structure may allow for diverse function within any given specie. However, any subjective function that is improper to the specie must be considered, also, as wrong usage, relative to the specie. Morality allows for diversified subjective activity, as right usage according to proper specie variation, but does not allow for activity which, though part of individual structure, is not right usage according to proper specie variation.
Godless, reread the link you provided:
"In other words, the system is chaotic. Its behavior can be predicted only if the initial conditions are known to an infinite degree of accuracy, which is impossible."
What this indicates is that there is an overall order to the universe, but that it simply cannot be known. Even the author of the article doesn't seem to realize this underlying implication. IF the initial conditions are known to an infinite degree of accuracy, THEN all behavior therein can be predicted. This simply refers to human knowledge, rather than an overlying chaos of the universe. If human knowledge were infinite, and therefore the initial conditions were known fully, then the overlying order to the unverse would reveal every future behavior.
Godless, reread the link you provided:
"In other words, the system is chaotic. Its behavior can be predicted only if the initial conditions are known to an infinite degree of accuracy, which is impossible."
What this indicates is that there is an overall order to the universe, but that it simply cannot be known. Even the author of the article doesn't seem to realize this underlying implication. IF the initial conditions are known to an infinite degree of accuracy, THEN all behavior therein can be predicted. This simply refers to human knowledge, rather than an overlying chaos of the universe. If human knowledge were infinite, and therefore the initial conditions were known fully, then the overlying order to the unverse would reveal every future behavior.
Giss!! thanks beyond, I will admit I hardly read it, just the first paragraph!!. 
.
I thought that would suffice for Sufi!. (no pun intended)!.
However beyond; I'm sure you will find this very interesting: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994250
Godless.
. I thought that would suffice for Sufi!. (no pun intended)!.
However beyond; I'm sure you will find this very interesting: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994250
Godless.
(smiling) beyond, I found what I was looking for;
The classical idea of casuality (i.e. the idea that the present state is the effect of an anterior state and cause of the state which is to follow) implies that in order to predict the future we must know the present, with enough precision. But, for quantum events this is impossible in view of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It was thought, however, that order reigned at human dimensions, but, in more recent times, with chaos theory and non-linear dynamics, we have got used to the fact that non-predictability is omnipresent in the physical world.
Does God Play Dice?. http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/docs/god_dice.html
Godless.
The classical idea of casuality (i.e. the idea that the present state is the effect of an anterior state and cause of the state which is to follow) implies that in order to predict the future we must know the present, with enough precision. But, for quantum events this is impossible in view of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It was thought, however, that order reigned at human dimensions, but, in more recent times, with chaos theory and non-linear dynamics, we have got used to the fact that non-predictability is omnipresent in the physical world.
Does God Play Dice?. http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/docs/god_dice.html
Godless.
Under the illumination of the above mentioned Koran signs, let us consider the following again:
...the beliefs of organized religions tend to be in conflict with the real world.
This is basically because of our misunderstandings based on our social conditionings... and because of our failure to free our minds from a childish concept of a "God" who is expected to reward or punish people for their deeds.
We fail to understand that taking care of the laws of nature is taking care of the laws of religion, as all spiritual masters explained us within the frame of religion the laws of the system that we all are subject to live ... that fire will burn and water will drown no matter how we believe or how we tend to be in conflict with the laws of nature.
No separate god will be punishing or rewarding us. We will simply receive the return of our spiritual state without the interfrence of a God, same as it is in this world we get the return of what we do. We get the return of what we do as an effect of the universal system that operates without the involvment of a God. It works and no one can escape from it.
The Koran does not speak of a god. No reward, no punishment from a god. GOD is an imagination which holds the person back from the belief in ALLAH. It will remain in the world as an imagination only.
...the beliefs of organized religions tend to be in conflict with the real world.
This is basically because of our misunderstandings based on our social conditionings... and because of our failure to free our minds from a childish concept of a "God" who is expected to reward or punish people for their deeds.
We fail to understand that taking care of the laws of nature is taking care of the laws of religion, as all spiritual masters explained us within the frame of religion the laws of the system that we all are subject to live ... that fire will burn and water will drown no matter how we believe or how we tend to be in conflict with the laws of nature.
No separate god will be punishing or rewarding us. We will simply receive the return of our spiritual state without the interfrence of a God, same as it is in this world we get the return of what we do. We get the return of what we do as an effect of the universal system that operates without the involvment of a God. It works and no one can escape from it.
The Koran does not speak of a god. No reward, no punishment from a god. GOD is an imagination which holds the person back from the belief in ALLAH. It will remain in the world as an imagination only.
Thank you, Godless, that was definitely an interesting read.
*The classical idea of casuality (i.e. the idea that the present state is the effect of an anterior state and cause of the state which is to follow) implies that in order to predict the future we must know the present, with enough precision. But, for quantum events this is impossible in view of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It was thought, however, that order reigned at human dimensions, but, in more recent times, with chaos theory and non-linear dynamics, we have got used to the fact that non-predictability is omnipresent in the physical world.
Alrighty. Here's a thought experiment. Remove intelligence, and free will. Assume that no humans exist, nor any intelligent alien life forms. Assume further, that the common conception of animals is that their brains function as computers, there is input, and then appropriate output (I know... very technical, but bear with me.... and I realize that alot of people see this the same way with humans, but let's ignore that issue for now). Now, are you saying, that even if every variable was known and calculated, that there would still be uncertainty? That, perhaps, the impossible may happen, and every single possible variable is then discounted as unviable? This, to me, seems highly counter-intuitive, as well as illogical. You may argue, if you like, that not every variable can be known. I might agree with that. Yet, whether the variables can be known or otherwise, it seems to me that they still exist, and everything works according to an extremely complex modality of cause and effect, taking place under a system of countless variables. While events themselves may seem highly sporadic, random or chaotic, it seems to me that they still happen due to physical laws, and forces. Even the so-called chaotic fractals have their own complex order. I think we're talking about two different things. There is order, and then there is control. Sure, the universe may not be controlled, and therefore events may occur in apparent random order. However, I argue that everything works under a very ordered, structured, set of laws. Call them physical, or natural, they are still laws by which the things in the universe abide.
I'd hardly say that non-predictability is omnipresent in the universe. Many things can be predicted with a high degree of accuracy. I'd say that things may not be absolutely predictable for the mind of limited scope. Yet unpredictability, again, says nothing about variable order.
*The classical idea of casuality (i.e. the idea that the present state is the effect of an anterior state and cause of the state which is to follow) implies that in order to predict the future we must know the present, with enough precision. But, for quantum events this is impossible in view of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It was thought, however, that order reigned at human dimensions, but, in more recent times, with chaos theory and non-linear dynamics, we have got used to the fact that non-predictability is omnipresent in the physical world.
Alrighty. Here's a thought experiment. Remove intelligence, and free will. Assume that no humans exist, nor any intelligent alien life forms. Assume further, that the common conception of animals is that their brains function as computers, there is input, and then appropriate output (I know... very technical, but bear with me.... and I realize that alot of people see this the same way with humans, but let's ignore that issue for now). Now, are you saying, that even if every variable was known and calculated, that there would still be uncertainty? That, perhaps, the impossible may happen, and every single possible variable is then discounted as unviable? This, to me, seems highly counter-intuitive, as well as illogical. You may argue, if you like, that not every variable can be known. I might agree with that. Yet, whether the variables can be known or otherwise, it seems to me that they still exist, and everything works according to an extremely complex modality of cause and effect, taking place under a system of countless variables. While events themselves may seem highly sporadic, random or chaotic, it seems to me that they still happen due to physical laws, and forces. Even the so-called chaotic fractals have their own complex order. I think we're talking about two different things. There is order, and then there is control. Sure, the universe may not be controlled, and therefore events may occur in apparent random order. However, I argue that everything works under a very ordered, structured, set of laws. Call them physical, or natural, they are still laws by which the things in the universe abide.
I'd hardly say that non-predictability is omnipresent in the universe. Many things can be predicted with a high degree of accuracy. I'd say that things may not be absolutely predictable for the mind of limited scope. Yet unpredictability, again, says nothing about variable order.
Sufi said:
I like simplicity.
AN-NAS (MANKIND)
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
114.001
YUSUFALI: Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind,
PICKTHAL: Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
SHAKIR: Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of men,
114.002
YUSUFALI: The King (or Ruler) of Mankind,
PICKTHAL: The King of mankind,
SHAKIR: The King of men,
114.003
YUSUFALI: The god (or judge) of Mankind,-
PICKTHAL: The god of mankind,
SHAKIR: The god of men,
114.004
YUSUFALI: From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),-
PICKTHAL: From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
SHAKIR: From the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan),
114.005
YUSUFALI: (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,-
PICKTHAL: Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind,
SHAKIR: Who whispers into the hearts of men,
114.006
YUSUFALI: Among Jinns and among men.
PICKTHAL: Of the jinn and of mankind.
SHAKIR: From among the jinn and the men.
:m:
p.s: Case closed.
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Bruce Wayne said:
AN-NAS (MANKIND)
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Say: I seek refuge in the Lord OF MEN,
The King OF MEN,
The god OF MEN...
I hope it can be seen better now.
Reading the Koran requires reflection and UNDERSTANDING. Koran does not speak of a god. Koran says "there is no god". Yet, man has always had god, which is in fact still nothing other than Allah, for Allah is the one alone and noting is outside of Allah.
As the Koran states that Laa yamassahu ill-al mutakharuun, meaning "those that are not purified have no touch on it"; that is men with an image of god in their minds that they associate with ALLAH, cannot read the Koran unless they purify their minds off their version of god.
"The people of shirq is dirty." (the Koran)
The dirtiness according to the Koran, is "shirq", which is associating partner to ALLAH. Therefore, the purification means here the clearance of mind from associating any versions of gods with ALLAH.
However, the literal readers of the Koran misinterpret it as simply "the purification of body", and they conclude that one cannot touch the Koran without taking abolution. But as is always seen, the clearnace of body has nothing to do with UNDERSTANDING the Koran...
Let the people who have ears hear it.
Is it possible to reword this being a little more specific on what you mean by “system”? I mean there are number systems, gravitational systems, thermodynamic systems, river systems, highway systems, telephone systems, capitalist systems, Newtonian system of mechanics, the decimal point system, a system of typing, taxonomic systems . . .. . ..Sufi said:
If you are going to say all inclusive then why say system when you may mean the physical universe?
Yes this is what I was thinking.Dreamwalker said:
Of course this would depend on the perspective. What system do you see as a “perfect” system?Sufi said:
Again, what system are we talking about?Sufi said:
There is a place for emotions in nature. As a matter of fact the add survival value to our species else they wouldn’t be part of our makeup. Emotions are no different than fingers. They have DNA sequences that encode for their being part of us and they help us to survive in nature.
There are other physical constants that we can not perceive directly through our 5 senses and indeed we need special machines to do the perceiving for us.Sufi said:
Many animals have more than 5 senses and can perceive things we can not - so maybe the human “system” is not as perfect as other physical-sensing-systems. Again it all depends on how you define “system” and “perfection”. Two terms that seem to be tossed into the discussion that may have quite different meaning depending on who is using the terms.
Take Godless’s post for example”
Godless said: