Do Atheists accept...
- Thread starter Sufi
- Start date
Do you mean a system that can be defined as physical laws (objective) or a mental system, like survival instincts (subjective)?
Ibelieve there is a system in fact I am fully convinced there is but it is nothing to do with anyone's description of god (jewish, chrisian, muslim) I find many of your ideas interesting sufi but the problem I have with them is that they relate to Muhammed and the quran. I simply under no circumstance can believe that muhammed was any sort of prophet of "god" I mean the guy killed people. How could someone who supposedly has a higher understanding of the "system" and the fact that we are all linked by it approve ANY killing?
path said:
path, I think what we are missing the fact that there is no place for our emotions in nature... The system operates based on its rules free of our judgments and emotions...
You first said you are convinced that there is system... and then you seem you find some of the things imporperly placed in this system??? If there is a system then there is nothing imperfect, wrong or amiss, and everything is porperly placed in that system. don't you think so?
Last edited:
Ok, then I would say that I believe in the (relative) existence of the universe and the physical law that applies to this existence. I also accept that there is life here, and that most lifeforms want to stay alive. Furthermore I believe in myself. This is the "system" I believe in.
Physical laws and life.
Physical laws and life.
without emotions we wouldnt be human, just machines imo.and since we are part of nature emotions are part of nature.Sufi said:
ah, the perfect creation argument,right?
I can see plenty of imperfection though in this system,otherwise we would have heaven right here on Earth.
Sufi said:
What I like about your philosophy Sufi is that it is all inclusive and non-judgemental (as far as I can tell)
I do not believe that there is nothing imperfect placed into the system I don't believe that anything was placed into the system. There is good and bad in the system and killing to advance your cause is simply the worst possible method a human can employ. I believe anyone who has some understanding of this system would find another way to achieve thier goals, like Ghandi for instance.
BTW I keep saying system but I don't really have much of an idea what I am talking about. What I percieve is just something akin to a web that links everything/everyone (must be all that San Pedro cactus juice I drank
) not something built by a god but something that maybe is just a natural state that we cannot normally perceive.
Sufi,
The varying characteristics and properties of fundamental particles, forces and elements determine the behavior and relationships of more complex structures. The concept of a system implies an independent organisational influence and that appears to be non-existent and unnecessary where life is concerned.
Edited to add -
However, if one considers that a system can evolve without external direction or simply exists because of basic fundamental properties of matter then yes life is the result of a system.
The varying characteristics and properties of fundamental particles, forces and elements determine the behavior and relationships of more complex structures. The concept of a system implies an independent organisational influence and that appears to be non-existent and unnecessary where life is concerned.
Edited to add -
However, if one considers that a system can evolve without external direction or simply exists because of basic fundamental properties of matter then yes life is the result of a system.
Last edited:
Sufi said:
Many systems operating in life. Reproductive system, cardiovascular system,
and the list goes on.
*that there is a system operating in life?
A system sure, but it is normal for the human organism with a conscious that evolved from language. See paterns or systems in nature are perceived, becuase our consciousness seeks out to find these paterns, and systems within nature. Early man saw simple paterns of constellations and made drawings of them, we've learnt to seek out paterns and systems within all of nature. But the fact that it appears that there exists paterns and systems withing nature, does not automatically preclude the existence of a supreme desingner. As we have come to recently observe within quantum physics there's lack of paterns, or systematically phenomenon.
Godless
A system sure, but it is normal for the human organism with a conscious that evolved from language. See paterns or systems in nature are perceived, becuase our consciousness seeks out to find these paterns, and systems within nature. Early man saw simple paterns of constellations and made drawings of them, we've learnt to seek out paterns and systems within all of nature. But the fact that it appears that there exists paterns and systems withing nature, does not automatically preclude the existence of a supreme desingner. As we have come to recently observe within quantum physics there's lack of paterns, or systematically phenomenon.
Godless
Q25 said:I can see plenty of imperfection though in this system,otherwise we would have heaven right here on Earth.
behind our experience of imprefection is always our standards of judgment we base on our emotions. So why do you resist agains the heaven? Why don't you make a change, just reform your seeing, free your mind and enter into heaven right now?
(or do you expect another heaven that will be given to you by someone else even if you resisted to enter?)
Where are these emotions when a lion tears a gazelle to pieces in its paws? Look at the nature, can you see any emotions, for instance "mercy"? They are all in man's mind.
if only we could quit identifying the reason of our emotionals in the outside world...
path said:
We cannot see the reasons unless we free our mind from our personal perspective based on our relative judgments and emotions. We need to purify our minds and think the same way as the System thinks in order to observe the truth of facts.
There is no good or bad in the system. The system just operates. The goods and bads are in our minds that we create based on our conditionings and they vary with each perspective.
I agree, killing to advance your cause is simply the worst possible method a human can employ.
But, your statement includes judgments based on your misunderstandings that prevent you from seeing the real face of the events. First, you take it as a personal cause and imagine the one to be in need of advancing his cause. What if his cause might be to succeed in survival in order to communicate to the whole humanity what he has been able to obeserve as the dangers awaiting all humans ahead and also the human potential to save themselves from that danger?.. I am not going to discuss the others untill we clarify this
BTW I keep saying system but I don't really have much of an idea what I am talking about. What I percieve is just something akin to a web that links everything/everyone (must be all that San Pedro cactus juice I drank
You may just consider that there is only one whole "past" behind us. There is no confusion considering it in its wholeness. It all happened, and all that happened has brought us to this point we are now. It is a complete System that operates.
The System does not need to be built by a god
Sufi said:But, your statement includes judgments based on your misunderstandings that prevent you from seeing the real face of the events. First, you take it as a personal cause and imagine the one to be in need of advancing his cause. What if his cause might be to succeed in survival in order to communicate to the whole humanity what he has been able to obeserve as the dangers awaiting all humans ahead and also the human potential to save themselves from that danger?.. I am not going to discuss the others untill we clarify this
I don't buy the idea that muhammed was forced to kill in order to survive. He moved to medina so that he could live in peace and from what I understand he was not threatened there, yet he had to conquer mecca. Also what is with all the caravan raiding? Theft doesn't sound very enlightened to me. As I said take for example image of jesus he managed to convey his message (which has now reached 2 billion people) without killing a soul in fact they killed him in the end but his message survived. Take Ghandi who managed to defeat the worlds mightiest empire without firing a shot. If muhammed had some sort of special insight that allowed him to see coming danger it would have been even easier for him to avoid bloodshed.
Sorry, again I like your ideas but not the source.
I as an athiest acknowledge that everything is a part of some system or another. And I don't think it would be too far fetched to assume all systems are some how connected to make one massive system that is the universe.
I know plenty of athiests here at sciforums don't acknowledge systems beyond those within biological organisms, they can't see the system of those seperate organisms interacting. When I mention ecology I get scoffed at like it's a pseudo science.
I find that very strange. I don't think these people have been in school since the 60s or something.
That said, it was noticing these systems that made me see the flaws in religion, I can't see how the systems of the world can sit right with any organised religion, let alone be used to support one.
The real world tends to be in conflict with the beliefs of organised religions.
I know plenty of athiests here at sciforums don't acknowledge systems beyond those within biological organisms, they can't see the system of those seperate organisms interacting. When I mention ecology I get scoffed at like it's a pseudo science.
I find that very strange. I don't think these people have been in school since the 60s or something.
That said, it was noticing these systems that made me see the flaws in religion, I can't see how the systems of the world can sit right with any organised religion, let alone be used to support one.
The real world tends to be in conflict with the beliefs of organised religions.
Sufi said:
I do not think so, but truth to tell, we are not developed enough to know why or how physical laws exist.
But life exists because physical laws exist.