Do animals Lie?
- Thread starter Kennyc
- Start date
I'll toss in a few random contributions:
There's a local bird here in Tennessee called the Killdeer. It uses the broken-wing bluff you're talking about to lure predators away from the nest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killdeer
One of the more well known bluffs is the opossum "playing dead"
There are species of birds who lay their eggs in other birds' nests....although that seems like more of an exploit than a lie.
The milk snake is another well known bluff
There are numerous species of animal with patches or coloration that resemble eyes.
There's a local bird here in Tennessee called the Killdeer. It uses the broken-wing bluff you're talking about to lure predators away from the nest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killdeer
One of the more well known bluffs is the opossum "playing dead"
There are species of birds who lay their eggs in other birds' nests....although that seems like more of an exploit than a lie.
The milk snake is another well known bluff
There are numerous species of animal with patches or coloration that resemble eyes.
Okay yeah the faking being dead would be a definite "lie"
I think the snake looking like another snake or camouflage of "eyes" is more natural and not something intentional.
What I'm trying to think about here is whether there are any animal equivalents to the outright lies that humans use.
I think the snake looking like another snake or camouflage of "eyes" is more natural and not something intentional.
What I'm trying to think about here is whether there are any animal equivalents to the outright lies that humans use.
Fish.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080731135914.htm
Dolphins and whales.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ufaw/aw/2001/00000010/A00101s1/art00014
I think I've heard of monkeys using deception too.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080731135914.htm
Dolphins and whales.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ufaw/aw/2001/00000010/A00101s1/art00014
I think I've heard of monkeys using deception too.
We watched a video in class some years back about a signing chimp in my animal behavior class, where the scientist asked the chimp if she had eaten and she said "no", so the scientist gave her a fruit. She ate the fruit and then bounced around "laughing". She had already eaten earlier, but she lied to get more food. When she isn't hungry anymore she stops lying about it. It was a pretty interesting video.
Also on the video were crows and raven who are notorious liars. They don't trust each other so they go to extreme lengths to trick other birds. They find food or something they want to keep and pretend to hide it somewhere, while really hiding it somewhere else. Of course the other crows or ravens know that they're lying so only the young ones actually fall for that trick.
The African Grey parrot Alex, used to say that he wanted water when he wasn't thirsty, just so he wouldn't have to answer questions. That footage is on youtube somewhere.
And from personal experience, my dog often pretends like he isn't interested in something so you'll drop your guard. He also used to hide toys that he didn't want play with and then pretend he didn't know where they were when you asked him to go get it. He's a tricky one.
I think, going from memory only (and at the moment I can't even remember the damn' book I read it in) that there's a bird (Honey-something, something-Honey) in Africa that leads bushmen to honey deposits and "lies" about the distance (the bushmen don't like to walk too far in search of honey - which the bird also eats - and leave their cattle alone for long.
So the bird deceives the bushmen (but not always, otherwise they'd never trust it) to get its meal.
The interaction is fairly complex - the birds have learnt that humans aren't a danger and will break into a hive while the bushmen have learnt to recognise the signs that the bird knows a hive is "close by".
So the bird deceives the bushmen (but not always, otherwise they'd never trust it) to get its meal.
The interaction is fairly complex - the birds have learnt that humans aren't a danger and will break into a hive while the bushmen have learnt to recognise the signs that the bird knows a hive is "close by".
Thanks!
Oh, you're just anthropomorphizing.
(I mean, I had to. It was just when a doctor taps above my knee with a reflex hammer.)
Ah! Thanks!
Cats lie about being embarrassed. Ever see one run into something or fall off something and then in a very dignified manner pretend to sniff something or lick a paw.
I'm cool, nothing untoward just happened.
Well, I don't know if I'd call that "lying", it might even be projection of our feelings one them. (same with the dog examples above I think).
My lecturer at uni Thomas Suddendorf (he's an expert in evolutionary psychology) told us that it's been found that chimps will make a danger call when there is no danger so that all the rest of the chimps retreat into the trees above, and while they are gone the chimp that made the danger call will just go and eat all their food.
But don't think they are too smart, the chimps in the trees will just stay there and watch as the deceptive chimp takes their stuff.
But that's a clear cut example of intentional lying right there.
But lying as well as a lot of other things are not specifically human traits.
I'm about to start researching for a presentation on how morality is found in chimps. There are actually studies out there that have found a sense of morality in chimps, it's amazing. They'll have a chimp perform a simple task, then reward him, then that chimp will watch as another chimp performs the same task but this time they'll reward him with many more rewards. The chimp that is getting less for the same things gets really annoyed and will no longer do the task because he thinks it's so unfair.
It's pretty cool that chimps have a sense of what is fair and unfair. There are other experiments which have demonstrated morality in animals too.
I wonder what this means for religions who claim that morals are uniquely human and are devinely given to us?
But don't think they are too smart, the chimps in the trees will just stay there and watch as the deceptive chimp takes their stuff.
But that's a clear cut example of intentional lying right there.
But lying as well as a lot of other things are not specifically human traits.
I'm about to start researching for a presentation on how morality is found in chimps. There are actually studies out there that have found a sense of morality in chimps, it's amazing. They'll have a chimp perform a simple task, then reward him, then that chimp will watch as another chimp performs the same task but this time they'll reward him with many more rewards. The chimp that is getting less for the same things gets really annoyed and will no longer do the task because he thinks it's so unfair.
It's pretty cool that chimps have a sense of what is fair and unfair. There are other experiments which have demonstrated morality in animals too.
I wonder what this means for religions who claim that morals are uniquely human and are devinely given to us?
Ophiolite
Valued Senior Member
It sticks it right up them where it belongs.
There are some useful primate examples (with further references) here.
This is an extract:
there are reports of savannah baboons giving out a predator alarm call when being chased by adults37 (as cited by Tomasello and Call38) and bonnet macaques doing the same to avoid attack/chastisement from more dominant adults.39 However, in one example, a subordinate male continued to give such a call although descending from a tree (which would not be done if a predator was present), indicating a lack of understanding that all actions, not just vocalisations, convey information.35
Withholding information is as much an act of deception as offering false information. For example, deception can be achieved by emotional concealment. Demonstration of fear can often be disadvantageous as it may identify an individual displaying such emotion as weak and a potential target for rivals. In two examples, this fear was concealed by manually regulating facial expression (covering a grin by repositioning the lips with the hands)40 (as cited by Whiten and Byrne41) and through using a distracting action (chewing on a twig).35
In terms of physical concealment, Kummer42 observed baboons hiding behind a rock to conceal the forbidden behaviour of mating that excluded the alpha male. The interpretation that this was an intentional removal from sight of the alpha male is supported by the observation that the female curbed her vocalizations and returned to the alpha male between these incidents.42 Sinha reported the concealment of similar prohibited behaviours in bonnet macaques.35