Disproof of God

[swivel]

Swivel:

Whereas the bulk of your conclusions are correct - such as an unconscious God not being God although coherent and that a conscious God and God as a creator are impossible - you have two major faults in your argument that prevent it from being complete. I shall address both of these:

Your conception of time: You claim that "time is the measurement of change in a system". This, however, is flawed. For in order for change to exist, there must first be time. That is to say, without time as a fundamental of existence that allows the capacity for change to take place, one cannot have change to begin with, as without time, space is static, just as in the sphere example you gave. What you give is a good example of how we can measure time, through its manifestation of change in space, but not in what time is, which cannot be construed as change itself. For change is ultimately a property of space and relation (the two other fundamentals) which is -facillitated- by the possibility of there being two distinct moments in an infinite series of time. One might even go as far as to say that regardless of change, time would still exist, if only that no manifestation of time's effects would take place. Of course, this also seems an impossibility in an infinite existence.

Your conception of cause: You postulate what is essentially an indeterminate or anti-determinate system in claiming that, should we ever be able to make time return to a prior state, that a different result could result. I must disagree. For in order to accept this as true, we must accept that one cause can have two different outcomes, which destroys the necessity of causality.

Actually, your concept of time is the one that is incorrect. And pardon me for being blunt... I don't know how else to put it. You seem to be saying that Time is some mystical force that imparts upon objects the ability for them to move around. That is exactly why I have a Time Primer in the disproof, too many people do not understand what time is.

Objects have the ability to move around because of the properties of space. Time is simply a way of talking about that movement. It isn't a magical force that creates a past, present and future. It isn't a force that gives the universe the ability to move. It is a necessary fact of any system that has movement (or any other sort of change).

If all you had in the universe was a single sphere that could gradually change from one color to another, through the rainbow, you would have a system that contains the concept of Time, without having to give it any strange abilities.

Cris is making the same mistake. Cris is pretending that you can have Time in an unchanging system. That just demonstrates that neither of you have taken the time to understand what Time is. If there is no change in a system, there is no time. Period. Time is a facet of that change, not the cause of it, not a separate thing, not a mystical force of nature.

That is why you can not, as Cris would want, have a god that can remain immobile for a length of "time", before the creation event. If god is eternal, it is because he has existed in an infinite number of states of change prior to the creation event. (not an infinite length of "time", Cris, that doesn't even make sense. Remember, Time does not pass without a change in the system, it makes so sense to say otherwise). And from any "early" event, you can not progress through the infinite states required to get to the creation.


If all of this seems confusing, it is probably due to a misunderstand of the two concepts that are tripping up Cris and Prince James: Time and Infinity. I don't know how to help beyond these examples. There aren't even any good books that assist.


Edit: Don't forget that I'm not suggesting that a different god can't exist. I even state that the universe could have been created by a god. Just not a conscious, eternal god. My premises are very specific, and that is the only sort of god I am talking about. Each personal god would require its own disproof.

 

[Theoryofrelativity]

Don't forget that I'm not suggesting that a different god can't exist. I even state that the universe could have been created by a god. Just not a conscious, eternal god. My premises are very specific, and that is the only sort of god I am talking about. Each personal god would require its own disproof.

:bugeye:

 

[Cris]

Swivel,

Cris is making the same mistake. Cris is pretending that you can have Time in an unchanging system.

Oh no, I haven’t implied anything like that, but I believe such a condition is logically possible with a better definition of time.

If there is no change in a system, there is no time.

No that is incorrect. The system could not exist without time, since existence requires time. It is not correct to define no time as an absence of change in a system. How would you define an immobile system that ages? I.e. in your terms each state is identical to the previous as seen by an imaginary observer. There is no qualitative difference between a changing system and an unchanging system; time is independent of either. It should be possible to demonstrate a logical modal error in your assertion of dependence.

Existence is a basic axiom and time must also be a basic axiom, since without time nothing could be said to exist, and without existence time would have no meaning. In this sense time is not a change of state but a property of existence, whether that existence is changing or unchanging. If something exists then time will also be present.

That is why you can not, as Cris would want, have a god that can remain immobile for a length of "time", before the creation event.

I have not implied that but I think the concept is irrelevant here anyway.

If god is eternal, it is because he has existed in an infinite number of states of change prior to the creation event.

No it doesn’t. It simply means immortal. You are trying to imply he has to have existed for eternity before he does anything, and that is simple nonsense. If he simply IS then creation can occur at any point in your imaginary timeline, or it could have occurred an infinite number of times.

I.e. there is no dependency on a preceding quantity of time before an event can occur.