Dismantling a Hoax

lixluke

Refined Reinvention
Valued Senior Member
Have you ever heard of the following terms?:
1. Strong-Atheist
2. Weak-Atheist
3. Atheist-Agnostic


I'm sure, if you read into the terminology rules for this section, you likely came across them. It is my intention here to provide reasons why these terms are not taken seriously in the real world, and shouldn't be taken seriously anywhere. It is a description of probably the largest most fanatical cult followings on the internet to redefine what has long been known as Atheism.

Let's start with a tiny forum on the world wide web called, Sciforums. If we check the Religion Section, we will see FAQs. Within the FAQ thread we can see terminology which points to another thread about terminology used in this section. That thread then points to a source: Secular Web. More commonly known as: www.infidels.org.

Even Wikipedia articles are fixed to incorporate SW’s claims of what “Atheism” is, and how it is defined with some convincing etymology. Wikipedia even sites SW as a source. But is SW a legitimate source? Are their definitions for “Atheism” legitimate? Who do they claim to be? Why are they so popular? Should we beware of them? Do they give legitimate atheists a bad name?


1. Let’s start with a common epistemological misconception.
Misconception: If I take up a position of certainty, it means I am not open to the views of others, and taking their position upon presentation of evidence.
A. This is one of the most foolish and illogical misconceptions that is used to distort the meaning of Atheism.
B. Anybody working rationally in logic knows that talking a position of certainty does not mean you are not open to changing your position upon proper evidence.
C. In fact, it is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE no matter how hard they try for a rational logical individual to continue with a position if they are presented with evidence to the contrary.
Fact: Anybody that takes up a position of certainty is always, by default, open to evidence to the contrary.


2. SW Acolytes
No matter what you believe, it is your duty to impose it to an extent. If what you believe is the truth, by all means, let others know about it. However, regardless of what it is, when somebody gets caught up in self-righteousness (disrespect of the beliefs of others) fanaticism about it to the point he/she starts taking things personal, they lose all objectivity, and are no more than a lunatic zealot. It is perfectly OK to believe there is a God. It is perfectly OK to believe there is no God. It is perfectly OK to spread what you believe whether it is religious or not. Topics are typically opened to discuss our beliefs with others.

A SW Acolyte is somebody who has, in one way or another, come across SW’s ideas about Atheism. Most likely from another Acolyte who “corrected” him about what Atheism “really is”. After being “enlightened”, they then go around spreading these notions to everybody everywhere. They are not legitimate Atheists in any form.


3. What is SW’s doctrine on Atheism, and should we buy into it?
The answer is no. I will provide here reasoning of why legitimate Atheists or anybody do not abide by SW’s definitions of Atheism that they have spread throughout the internet. Also, reasons why their claims should not be taken seriously.

SW ATHEISM: Anybody that does not believe in God including those who have not taken any position on the matter is an Atheist. Those who have taken position that there is no God is “Strong Atheist”.

LEGITIMATE ATHEISM: The position of certainty that there is no God. (Need not to be stated that by default, open to evidence to contrary.)

DILLEMA 1: SW Atheism claims that “Strong Atheism” is not open to evidence to the contrary. As stated in #1, this is a logical misconception.

DILLEMA 2: By using SW Atheism, we can easily say that everybody is an Atheist one way or another. You might believe in one God, but if you don’t believe in another God, you can be said to be Atheist.

DILLEMA 3: Etymology in the case of “ism” always implies a position on something. While Theism is the position of certainty that God exists, A in “Atheism” does not imply the lack of certainty on the matter. Any “Ism” with an “A” in prefix, implies antithesis of view. Theism and Atheism are antithetical positions. While Theism is certainty that God exists, Atheism is certainty that God does not exist.

DILLEMA 4: Somebody that is undescided/doesn't know cannot be described under an "ism". Such lack of position cannot be referred to as "Weak Atheism" just as much as it cannot be referred to as "Weak Thesism".


4. It is important for any legitimate atheist to be aware that www.infedels.org is a hoax of real Atheism. It is only bloated with doctrine about what legitimate Atheism is not, and will never be. No place in respectable legitimate society takes their terminology seriously.

-If you are uncertain of whether or not God exists, you do not fall under an “ism” with respect to the question.
-If you do take up the position that God certainly does not exist, it does not mean you are not open to evidence in contrary.
-Those who take up position that man can certainly never know whether or not God exists falls under Agnosticism.
-Those who take up position that man can never be certain of anything falls under Skepticism. (Which also implies Agnosticism.)
 
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it seems contradictory to me that to be "certain" and "open to evidence of the contrary".
 
it seems contradictory to me that to be "certain" and "open to evidence of the contrary".
This is one of the biggest problems because logic really needs no explanation, but for some reason, probably gets distorted in language and culture. Ill try to explain it better.


Everything you know for sure or are 100% certain of is your belief. If you are not 100% certain of something, you do not believe it. You do not control what you beleive. You can try as hard as you can not to believe something, but there is nothing you can do.
For example: The belief that there is a computer in front of you.

If evidence comes into your understanding to contrary of whatever it is you believe, you will inevitably be compelled to no longer hold that belief, and will be hit with what is commonly called "realization". Realization is typically a switch from one belief to another. It can also be when something you never thought of comes into your understanding.

Whether theist or atheist, this is a natural aspect of the human mind. I'm sure even you have been so certain about something, and suddenly came to a realization that despite how much you wanted it to be true, you had to admit it wasn't.
 
well in that case, i would say there is a difference between what you know, and what you believe. what you believe being an extension of what you know, or an assumption that's based upon it...a conclusion you draw from it. unless that is...my computer isn't really there. hm...
 
well in that case, i would say there is a difference between what you know, and what you believe. what you believe being an extension of what you know, or an assumption that's based upon it...a conclusion you draw from it. unless that is...my computer isn't really there. hm...
When a person makes the claim that they know something for sure, it is nothing more than their belief. Anything an individual believes they know may be correct or in correct in actual reality.

The word "know" is a lingustically tricky word. The following setnance can actually have 2 completely differernt interpretations, but people don't pay much attention to language:
"Bob knows for sure there is a computer in front of him."
1. Bob believes there is a computer in front of him, but there may or not be one there.
2. Bob is aware there is definitely a computer in front of him.
 
Why do theists get all hot and bothered about how atheism is defined?

I don't believe in god hence I am an atheist. Simple.
 
Why do theists get all hot and bothered about how atheism is defined?

I don't believe in god hence I am an atheist. Simple.
People like to distort meanings, and therefore distort discussions. Somebody doesn't believe in God. Somebody believes there is no such thing as God. The point is people tend to misinterpret things. There are only 3 positions in any question.

1. True
2. False
3. Uncertain/Don't know

Here is the statement in question: God is real.
Atheism holds that God is certainly not real.

People can misinterpret what position you take depending on how you say something. Thus, people proliferate misinterpretations.
 
Memes and labels are tricky things.

Here is an extract from the American Atheists website on how Atheism is defined.

Atheism is a doctrine that states that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.

The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools.

“Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.

An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.

An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”
 
Most people I believe understand these terms -

Theist - one who believes a god exists
Atheist - one who believes a god does not exist
Agnostic - one who maintains a neutral position

Seems simple enough. Perhaps Sciforums should also adopt these meanings.
 
Atheism is a doctrine that states that nothing exists but natural phenomena
This means that supernatural phenomena does not exist. This is because Atheism in normal everyday life (beyond the scope of internet hoax memes) is understood as being the position that there is no God or supernatural force. Whatever the case may be in the court system, the bottom line is that they are using the term "Atheism" as it has always been intended. And not to describe those who are uncertain about the matter.
 
Lixluke,

...the bottom line is that they are using the term "Atheism" as it has always been intended. And not to describe those who are uncertain about the matter.
The problem though is that I'm not sure there was an agreed original intent.

This wiki article covers some of the history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Etymology

Like many terms in common use they come to mean what the users want it to mean. For example -

The term 'atheist' was an insult. Nobody would have dreamed of calling himself an atheist."[23] Atheism was first used to describe a self-avowed belief in late 18th-century Europe, specifically denoting disbelief in the monotheistic Abrahamic god

Many theists, especially Muslims see the term very much as an insult. Or is it not correct to use the term except as applied to the abrahamic god? Etc., etc.

So really the SW variation is not a hoax but just a different philosophical perspective that represents a group of people that are comfortable with those definitions.

The creation of the BRIGHT movement was another attempt bring together those SW atheist and all the other types. I'm not really sure that is succeeding.

In the end the term simple has many interpretations with no authoritative source to say which is correct and which is not.

I've come to prefer to not assign the term to myself since I'm fully aware that at any given time whoever hears the term might have an entirely different interpretation to what I intend. In essence it has become a useless term as a means to deliver effective communication.
 
I'm sure, if you read into the terminology rules for this section, you likely came across them. It is my intention here to provide reasons why these terms are not taken seriously in the real world, and shouldn't be taken seriously anywhere.

I would assert that they're not necessary - if anything, the 'weak' statement seems to be one of fear that the onus comes down to you when stating: "gods don't exist". This is of course fallacious, one can and does do it happily with any entity, (santa, leprechauns, zeus etc), without ever feeling they have the onus on them.

However, one cannot argue that weak atheism has no historical footing. Carlisle, Holyoake, Cooper, Southwell, Bradlaugh, Foote, Flint.

On this last individual:

"The atheist is not necessarily a man who says, There is no God. What is called positive or dogmatic atheism, so far from being the only kind of atheism, is the rarest of all kinds.... [E]very man is an atheist who does not believe that there is a God, although his want of belief may not be rested on any allegation of positive knowledge that there is no God, but simply on one of want of knowledge that there is a God."

"The word atheist is a thoroughly honest, unambiguous term. It means one who does not believe in God, and it means neither more nor less."
- (Flint was a theist).

Etymology in the case of “ism” always implies a position on something. While Theism is the position of certainty that God exists, A in “Atheism” does not imply the lack of certainty on the matter.

What is autism a position of certainty on?

While Theism is certainty that God exists, Atheism is certainty that God does not exist.

This is incorrect as far as etymology is concerned.

Somebody that is undescided/doesn't know cannot be described under an "ism".

You will find that 100% of theists "don't know" but it is still labelled under an 'ism'. Yes, believe it or not you will find that - unless being particularly deceitful, every theist you'll ever meet will happily state that they don't know but that they believe and have faith. Your statement is incorrect.

-If you are uncertain of whether or not God exists, you do not fall under an “ism” with respect to the question.

Interesting. So a person that isn't certain that a god exists but believes one does isn't a theist. That's mighty interesting. It's also rather silly.

Regards,
 
How many times must this be gone over???
An atheist is someone who lacks any belief in any gods. That's it. Anyone who can truthfully say they do not believe in any god is an atheist.
I know the god of the KJV can't exist because it's too contradictory. It's logicly impossible to have a square triangle. The question shouldn't even need to be asked or answered.
I don't know whether any other gods exist. As far as I can see so far, I have no way of knowing. That's not weak. It's as strong as can be.
Weak atheist & strong atheist are simply crap showing that even atheists can be full of it sometimes.
 
The term 'atheist' was an insult. Nobody would have dreamed of calling himself an atheist."[23] Atheism was first used to describe a self-avowed belief in late 18th-century Europe, specifically denoting disbelief in the monotheistic Abrahamic god
I call people "atheist" all the time as an inuslt, but that is only an informal definition. I have freinds who hate God, hate religion, and everything about it. Even more so, they hate when I call them atheist. Simply because they do not acknowledge the term or any terms that are affiliated with religion. Complete profile of a Bright.

As for the Wikipedia article, it is completely loaded and of absolutely no validity. I don't take any quotes from that article seriously in the slightest. That artilce is 99.99999999% illegitimate. Everything in that article is pure propoganda.

I agree with the idea of it being a philisophically different way of looking at it. I find it to follow no logic or rationality, but it is their view.


What is autism a position of certainty on?
The "ism" in autism is meant to express a state/condition. Not the same as "ism's in philosophy/art/thought. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ism

Isms as used regarding beliefs are beliefs/systems one accepts/abides by.
 
In more complex systems, like explaining things to your mom...

True [theist]
Not false where not false not necessarily true [soft theist]
Neither true nor false [agnostic]
Not true where not true is not necessarily false [soft atheist]
False [hard atheist]
Uncertain/Don't know/but it could be possible to find out [soft agnostic]
Uncertain/Don't know/and can't be known [hard agnostic]
Who cares? apathist
 
If there is one sure way to prove you aren't too bright, its calling yourself a "bright."
 
People like to distort meanings, and therefore distort discussions. Somebody doesn't believe in God. Somebody believes there is no such thing as God. The point is people tend to misinterpret things. There are only 3 positions in any question.

1. True
2. False
3. Uncertain/Don't know
It's not that simple. See here:
[thread=71199]How certain is your opinion on God's existence? [/thread]

Here is the statement in question: God is real.
Atheism holds that God is certainly not real.

People can misinterpret what position you take depending on how you say something. Thus, people proliferate misinterpretations.
You know, I agree that "atheism" should imply certainty... but the fact is that when someone says they're atheist, they do not usually mean it that way. You can call it misuse, you can call it changing the language, you can call it what you like... but in the end, does it really matter what the word should mean? Isn't the intended meaning what counts?

Isn't there some onus on the listener to interpret words according to common usage in the given context?


swarm said:
If there is one sure way to prove you aren't too bright, its calling yourself a "bright."
Catchy phrase, but pretty bare of logic, I think.
 
The "A" prefix means without/non/ain't got no.
As in....
Asexual=having no sex or sexual organs.(not a belief theres no sex organs)
Amoral=without morals.(no belief/knowledge of morals)
Apolitical=none political.(no belief/knowledge in politics)
Atypical=not typical.(no belief/knowledge there typical)
Asymmetrical=without symmetry .(no belief/knowledge theres symmetry)
Atheist=without belief in god/gods.(no belief/knowledge theres a god)

Thats IT. no other assumptions can be made from it.
 
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