Discrimination of Native American boys in schools

[Yellow Jacket]

Really, it is no different than born-agains who try to live their lives regarding what they perceive as the "truth". They also will claim every aspect of their life is intertwined with their spirituality. One can place the burning of rock and roll albums as an extension of the "spirituality" however, it is not a part of the 'religion'. It is a superstition meme passed from one person to another and not a part of the religion.

The article itself makes no reference to the tie in to religion. The closest it gets is the hair cutting being a symbol of a recent death acted out by some individuals. Wearing black to a funeral? Tradition. Custom. Lots of words here. Typical religious requirement? Nope (except maybe jewish funerals, I dont know for sure).

Note, I am not arguing that religion does not exist in Native life, I am saying the hair issue is cultural, not religious.

I am also in agreement that the teachers aide was way out of line for the actions taken. But for a different reason than religion.

It wasn't just one article that I put in the OP. If you would actually look and watch the links I provided, you would understand what I am saying.
For Native Americans, it is a religious aspect, to protect the rights outside of the reservation, it is catergorized as religion and the hair for many fall into the religious aspect. This is where trying to understand another person's culture, way of life, religion with an open mind is helpful.
I will provide a link for you, that maybe you will see how Native American's do see it as a religious, spiritual thing. Please take a minute to look.

http://www.nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/601/long-hair

Again, I understand this concept because I am native american, Lower Umpqua. Hard to tell me that it is not a religious thing. Everything has a purpose, spiritually which rules your life, the way you think, perceive things, understand the world and reasoning around you. But, because there is no real label, such as Christian Orthodox, Muslim, Jewish.......there are no real written laws specifically for all tribes to follow, it becomes difficult to understand. Most of these spiritual things are taught verbally, passed on from generation to generation. It's just something you know. Put it this way, go onto a rez and tell them you want to join thier "religion". You can't. Because it's something that you can grab a text book and know all and follow to a T. Very hard to explain.

 

[Yellow Jacket]

Its fairly common knowledge but i am not going to go and check the rules for every middle school in the u.s.

Like i said, only recently another kid was on the news who didnt want to cut his hair either and honestly the answer is a simple one- dont send your kid to school.

It is only on in later life that we can do whatever we want to do and no one will care and i can tell you that isnt so good either...when no one cares.

Just saying, all the public middle schools around me DO NOT have a policy on the length of hair, or even hair at all. Mohawks, crazy die jobs, any style goes.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Just saying, all the public middle schools around me DO NOT have a policy on the length of hair, or even hair at all. Mohawks, crazy die jobs, any style goes.

Yay. At least somewhere in the world, teachers are sane, or at least reasonably close.

 

[Yellow Jacket]

Yay. At least somewhere in the world, teachers are sane, or at least reasonably close.

:cheers:
LOL!

 

[Orleander]

His hair wasn't long, it was only chin length. :shrug: And it happened in Canada. Are the rules different there than here in the US? Because it would have been all over the news here and the ACLU would have been involved.

And one person cutting the hair off one child isn't discrimination against a Native American boys in schools.

 

[milkweed]

It wasn't just one article that I put in the OP. If you would actually look and watch the links I provided, you would understand what I am saying.

I do understand what your saying. I just disagree with it.

For Native Americans, it is a religious aspect, to protect the rights outside of the reservation, it is catergorized as religion and the hair for many fall into the religious aspect. This is where trying to understand another person's culture, way of life, religion with an open mind is helpful.

Works both ways. I have watched plenty of people who truly believe its a religious aspect (such as the example of burning rock and roll albums). But its not a part of the religion, its a personal superstition no different than throwing salt over your shoulder.

"Superstition is a credulous belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstition

I will provide a link for you, that maybe you will see how Native American's do see it as a religious, spiritual thing. Please take a minute to look.

OK I read your link. Lots of innuendo, but not much substance. Some, maybe even many Indian men did wear their hair long, however, to indicate this was a religious requirement puts the burden on you.

The long hair/braids aspect was personal strength, a selfish motive, not religious. Cutting of your enemies hair was not an affront to the gods/spirits, it was one man/tribe/band domination over another. There was personal shame for the loser of the battle, but no spiritual consenquence. Cultural implications? sure.

Apache tradition: cut your hair upon the death of a close relative/friend. Symbolism? I am weakened by the loss. Emotional symbolism, sure. Religious symbolism? Nope.

Everything has a purpose, spiritually which rules your life, the way you think, perceive things, understand the world and reasoning around you. But, because there is no real label, such as Christian Orthodox, Muslim, Jewish.......there are no real written laws specifically for all tribes to follow, it becomes difficult to understand.

Not only difficult to understand, difficult to prove. Again, I will stress that you can go into nearly any catholic church on any given sunday, and you will find some women who cover their hair, believing on a personal level that is what god instructs. However, you will find the catholic teaching on that aspect to be an unrequired standard of dress for catholic women. It is not a religious teaching, it is a personal superstition.

There is plenty to argue that the child/parental rights were violated by the teachers aide, and even the texas rules in a public school. There is captive audience issues regarding the texas case. There is free speech/expression issues that dont need the cover of 'religion' to hide behind.

 

[Neverfly]

OK I read your link. Lots of innuendo, but not much substance. Some, maybe even many Indian men did wear their hair long, however, to indicate this was a religious requirement puts the burden on you.

The long hair/braids aspect was personal strength, a selfish motive, not religious. Cutting of your enemies hair was not an affront to the gods/spirits, it was one man/tribe/band domination over another. There was personal shame for the loser of the battle, but no spiritual consenquence. Cultural implications? sure.

How about I take it on, instead?

Being as I am Native American, Lakota nation and I take a great deal of pride in my heritage, I can tell you a few simple things.

Look at how many people are fussing over the idea of a Mosque being built at ground zero?
People take beliefs seriously at times. Even when it is not a true spiritual belief in question-- But rather a Representation of a Culture.

You do not have to agree. You don't even have to understand, because frankly, I doubt you can understand it.

About the only person I would trust to understand it would be an older black man, who understands and remembers the history and significance of the usage of the N-word.

In Lakota- the number system is described with colors and color combinations. It does not use the Arabic system that you are used to.
If you were to try to use it, you would be utterly bewildered until you learned it. Do you think you understand that, now? Simply because I told you something about it?

Who the HELL are YOU to try to claim you understand Native American Custom?

It is of spiritual significance and a very long history that you do not understand. And Spiritual significance is included in the legal description of "Religion."
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss16/gunn.shtml

Since I am not religious anymore and I do not partake in the spiritual, I cannot claim that it holds a religious meaning to ME anymore than if I was a catholic that didn't take religious significance (Touching a statue or not)upon myself, personally.
The law is not going to make such distinctions. You may disagree- take that up with your lawmakers.
Because if someone desecrates a Catholic Statue as a hate crime- the law includes it as an attack on religion.

You don't have to understand the significance of it. But don't claim that you do when you do not.

What- you read something somewhere? I'm sure you don't react to the N-word as a black person would, even though you've been exposed to THAT all your life.

 

[Gypsi]

Not only difficult to understand, difficult to prove. Again, I will stress that you can go into nearly any catholic church on any given sunday, and you will find some women who cover their hair, believing on a personal level that is what god instructs. However, you will find the catholic teaching on that aspect to be an unrequired standard of dress for catholic women. It is not a religious teaching, it is a personal superstition.

Firstly, how you define Native American beliefs is irrelevant. Secondly, it's not anyone else's place to dictate what is and is not, should or should not be important to individual Native Americans.

In this case we have a teacher who was aware that the boy was growing his hair for an upcoming First Nations event. In other words, was aware that the length of his hair was important to him. In addition there are no rules regarding hair length or style at that school. (you can view them here - select "General Info" on the left.)

Ultimately, the teacher acted on their personal preferences against the wishes of the the child and his parents, and without their permission. This alone is unacceptable - Native American or not.

However, the fact that the boy is Native American does set alarm bells ringing, particularly as Thunder Bay is a relatively small place with more than one in ten being First Nations people (a far higher percentage than most Canadian cities) - if anything, one would expect a greater level of sensitivity. Or would that be naive?

 

[milkweed]

How about I take it on, instead?

Being as I am Native American, Lakota nation and I take a great deal of pride in my heritage, I can tell you a few simple things.

People take beliefs seriously at times. Even when it is not a true spiritual belief in question-- But rather a Representation of a Culture.

Yes, a representation of a culture.

So what gods/spirits are angered by the cutting of the enemies hair? What gods/spirits are pleased by these actions?

Its not about religion, its about self image. And in many cases about sex. Long hair = health/success (one measure) = attraction for women (tribe/band/nation dependent).

You do not have to agree. You don't even have to understand, because frankly, I doubt you can understand it.

And I could respond that you cannot be objective about the subject because you are too emotionally involved.

Who the HELL are YOU to try to claim you understand Native American Custom?

From your link:
"Among non-legal scholars in philosophy and religion there is a very lively debate as to whether the word “religion” can or should be defined.[10] It has been observed that the “effort to define religion is as old as the academic study of religion itself.”[11] In fact, “dozens, if not hundreds of proposals have been made, each claiming to solve the definitional problem in a new and unique way. Needless to say, no one definition of religion has garnered a consensus, and the definitional enterprise, as well as the debate over the very need for definitions, continues in full vigor.”

I also understand orally passed traditions are susceptible to change in meaning when passed generation to generation. Add in the long term attempts to dissolve any memory of the traditions, with the recent attempts to re-establish these customs and religious practices and there are bound to be mistakes in interpretations.

Or even planned attempts to redefine cultural tradition into religious tradition.

Because if someone desecrates a Catholic Statue as a hate crime- the law includes it as an attack on religion.

You don't have to understand the significance of it. But don't claim that you do when you do not.

Ah, but I do understand why desecrating a catholic statue falls under religious persecution. Catholic statues clearly represent that religion. I also understand why catholic statues are confined to catholic properties and not placed in public schools regardless of the personal belief systems of the public school students.

Are native americans traditionally banned from participating in religious ceremonies because they are bald, or because they have short hair? Nope. It is not a requirement of the religious practice of the various tribes/bands.

I dont think this is a religious issue, I think this is a parental rights/student rights issue. I dont think christian boys who like to wear long hair, in braids or not should be barred from the practice in public schools.

 

[Neverfly]

Milkweed: "Don't confuse me, my mind is already made up."

 

[Orleander]

....Being as I am Native American, Lakota nation and I take a great deal of pride in my heritage, I can tell you a few simple things.....

Holy Crap! Really? My step-mom and sisters are Lakota. My college roomamate was Santee. Sadly they are mostly embarrassed and have moved far away from their heritage as they can.

 

[Neverfly]

Holy Crap! Really? My step-mom and sisters are Lakota. My college roomamate was Santee. Sadly they are mostly embarrassed and have moved far away from their heritage as they can.

Sadly, indeed. Is that a remnant of the old days? I had family members from a couple generations ago that would never have admitted to having native heritage. But that was then...
For myself, I'm primarily adopted at this point.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Holy Crap! Really? My step-mom and sisters are Lakota. My college roomamate was Santee. Sadly they are mostly embarrassed and have moved far away from their heritage as they can.

Why are they embarrassed?

 

[Yellow Jacket]

Sadly, indeed. Is that a remnant of the old days? I had family members from a couple generations ago that would never have admitted to having native heritage. But that was then...
For myself, I'm primarily adopted at this point.

Think there are two points in that. At least from my tribe.
1) Because of the social stigma and mistreatment, easier to adopt to the outside world and avoid persecution.

2) Things were so chaotic with some tribes trying to get their governments up and running once they were awarded land from the government, that it was highly frustrating, some of them were corrupt, that many wanted no part of it. That was some of the deal, especially for my tribe and it seems like presently things have come to order better. More are joining at a higher rate, things are going better. It was hard, the Christians and others turned their world upside down, brainwashed the children, took away their culture. Trying to bring that back for some tribes have proven a challenge. Not saying this is for all tribes, some have been more established for much longer. Many tribes have recently just been able to acquire some of their lands back within the last 30 years.

 

[Neverfly]

Think there are two points in that. At least from my tribe.
1) Because of the social stigma and mistreatment, easier to adopt to the outside world and avoid persecution.

2) Things were so chaotic with some tribes trying to get their governments up and running once they were awarded land from the government, that it was highly frustrating, some of them were corrupt, that many wanted no part of it. That was some of the deal, especially for my tribe and it seems like presently things have come to order better. More are joining at a higher rate, things are going better. It was hard, the Christians and others turned their world upside down, brainwashed the children, took away their culture. Trying to bring that back for some tribes have proven a challenge. Not saying this is for all tribes, some have been more established for much longer. Many tribes have recently just been able to acquire some of their lands back within the last 30 years.

Yes... and add to that alcoholism.

 

[Yellow Jacket]

Yes... and add to that alcoholism.

LOL! Why do you think they drank so much? hehehehe

Truthfully, it runs in my family. That is why I rarely drink and if I'm stressed I stay away from. Seen the neg side of all that.....breaking the cycle hopefully. Not that I've never had fun in my younger years, but I never went toooo crazy with it.

 

[Yellow Jacket]

Yes, a representation of a culture.

So what gods/spirits are angered by the cutting of the enemies hair? What gods/spirits are pleased by these actions?

Its not about religion, its about self image. And in many cases about sex. Long hair = health/success (one measure) = attraction for women (tribe/band/nation dependent).

And I could respond that you cannot be objective about the subject because you are too emotionally involved.


From your link:
"Among non-legal scholars in philosophy and religion there is a very lively debate as to whether the word “religion” can or should be defined.[10] It has been observed that the “effort to define religion is as old as the academic study of religion itself.”[11] In fact, “dozens, if not hundreds of proposals have been made, each claiming to solve the definitional problem in a new and unique way. Needless to say, no one definition of religion has garnered a consensus, and the definitional enterprise, as well as the debate over the very need for definitions, continues in full vigor.”

I also understand orally passed traditions are susceptible to change in meaning when passed generation to generation. Add in the long term attempts to dissolve any memory of the traditions, with the recent attempts to re-establish these customs and religious practices and there are bound to be mistakes in interpretations.

Or even planned attempts to redefine cultural tradition into religious tradition.


Ah, but I do understand why desecrating a catholic statue falls under religious persecution. Catholic statues clearly represent that religion. I also understand why catholic statues are confined to catholic properties and not placed in public schools regardless of the personal belief systems of the public school students.

Are native americans traditionally banned from participating in religious ceremonies because they are bald, or because they have short hair? Nope. It is not a requirement of the religious practice of the various tribes/bands.

I dont think this is a religious issue, I think this is a parental rights/student rights issue. I dont think christian boys who like to wear long hair, in braids or not should be barred from the practice in public schools.

You know what? Instead of trying to educate yourself and learn something, you have closed your mind and only want to try to prove a point that you assume is right. You are hearing first hand from a native american, I keep showing how and why, and you constantly keep looking up info from non native americans who do not understand. I am not going to bother with your comments. Sad, there was an opportunity to learn something here and you have proven why many have a difficult time trying to teach the outside world a bit about the way we think and live our lives. In your case, ignorance is bliss. I am pretty sure we could continue here for months, me looking up links and such to show you how we think and feel about our "religion" or "spirituality" and you will try to continue to tell me, a native american, that I am wrong. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

[Neverfly]

You know what? Instead of trying to educate yourself and learn something, you have closed your mind and only want to try to prove a point that you assume is right.

Bingo.
I'm gonna grab this and run with it for a moment and point out something unrelated.
We ALL do this sometimes.
I know that I've been caught doing it and it's humiliating.

Although I understand the spiritual aspect because I grew up with it, some people feel that because I'm now an atheist, that I've somehow stopped understanding it, too.

Milkweed, did your people walk the trail of tears?
Watch your infants heads smashed against the side of a wagon while the mother was held back to watch?
This shit really happened.

And there's so much wrong in the world that falls outside of our own monkey sphere, it's easy to disassociate it. So it is not in your monkey sphere. You don't understand it.
Just as you may not understand the n-word to a black person whom to THEM means something that carries a significance, a representation of pain you just don't get.

Well this one is MY monkey sphere.
It's a pain the same as if your wife comes up to you and says, "Look I'm sorry but I don't love you anymore. I've been fucking someone else, too."
It's like the pain of losing a child.
That history strikes down to the very core and you'll be going through your day and suddenly it hits your chest. And you just have to cope with it or people will think you're crazy. Because they don't have to carry that with them.

Can you imagine then-- For someone to come along and Disrespect that? Shame it? Show a total disregard for you?

It fills a person with rage. Wrath.

You are not expected to Understand it. I don't think you can.
All you can do is nod your head and say, "I don't get it. But I can see that you do."

 

[Michael]

Now you are being dramatic.

I dont know why you posted those links either. I know what head lice are and i sure as hell dont want them. It isnt the point that the kid did\does\may not have lice. The point is that head lice are a KNOWN problem in schools and the way to avoid that is keeping hair short. Do you understand this much?

I'm pretty sure cutting someone's hair is not the cure to head-lice. A shampoo kills the live lice and a comb removes the eggs - I think that's how to get rid of them?

Think about it, girls keep their long hair (if they have long hair) they don't cut it.


This is obviously a case of the aid having their head in their arse - way in there. Probably was unknowingly biased (or outright bigot).

 

[Michael]

LOL! Why do you think they drank so much? hehehehe

Truthfully, it runs in my family. That is why I rarely drink and if I'm stressed I stay away from. Seen the neg side of all that.....breaking the cycle hopefully. Not that I've never had fun in my younger years, but I never went toooo crazy with it.

My family is Dutch/German on one side and Scottish/Irish on the other - pretty much everyone is alcoholic


Although growing up in Michigan I can say I never really knew that many Native Americans. I dated a girl who was Native American by decent, because her grandmother was a princess, she tried to get free University and the tribe told her to f-off (her father worked at GM and pulled down 80K a year). She looked pretty much like your average "White" American with a little bit of an Asian almond shape to her eyes.

My father has a fascination with Native American culture. We used to look for arrow heads when I was a kid and I think I had collected hundreds, if not a thousand. Having grown up surrounded by a lot of "nature" I think we maybe romanticized the Native American culture. Yes, everyone knows about the drinking problems, but, I think in general it's a great cultural heritage and it's be good to see more people embrace it. I'm sure if there's not American's by decent who would, there's European decent Americans who would.

Is it possible to open up the tribe in that way?