DIE brave

Is it better to die a brave man or to live as a weak one


  • Total voters
    16
Prince_James said:
I would frame it this way: When death is the only course proper, take it. When death is not necessary for the proper course, do not take it.

And who decides what's "proper"? And, of course, based on what information or evidence? Also, is that to say that the exact same decision could be judged "proper" in different ways by different people?

Prince_James said:
If unsure, choose death. For it is far less an error to die for something not worth dying for, then to live when death was proper.

If unsure, choose death? Why? Wouldn't it be a better course of action to wait until one has enough info so as to make such a monumental decision?

Who was it that said something like, "Tis better to run away so as to fight another day." I.e., pretend to be meek and weak, then when the enemy is least suspecting, attack him and rip his lungs out! :)

I'm afraid that I can't vote on this issue ...I don't have enough data to make such a major decision. And since I'm not being forced to make the decision, I won't do it ...one way or the other.

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
And who decides what's "proper"? And, of course, based on what information or evidence? Also, is that to say that the exact same decision could be judged "proper" in different ways by different people?



If unsure, choose death? Why? Wouldn't it be a better course of action to wait until one has enough info so as to make such a monumental decision?

Who was it that said something like, "Tis better to run away so as to fight another day." I.e., pretend to be meek and weak, then when the enemy is least suspecting, attack him and rip his lungs out! :)

I'm afraid that I can't vote on this issue ...I don't have enough data to make such a major decision. And since I'm not being forced to make the decision, I won't do it ...one way or the other.

Baron Max


What does die brave, live weak mean exactly?
Many things, I left it ambiguous deliberately to let you venture your own scenarios. I wondered what people would define as 'brave' and 'weak' acts.

Bravery can amount to genuine heroism or plain stupidity

Not everyone who is 'brave' is a hero.

A brave man could be one who :
acted on impulse
underestimated the risk to himself
decided the risk to himself was worth it.
was under orders

A weak man could be one who:
did not act on impulse
estimated the risk to himself
decided the risk to himself was not worth it.
ignored his orders


1b) A 'brave' man could be one who never stepped out of the way of oncoming danger lest he look a coward, such as being warned of an imminent terrorist attack in your neighbourhood and staying put all the same.

2b) A 'brave' man could be one who dived into a stormy sea to save a drowning dog.

3b) A 'brave' man could be one who endured the pain of a heart attack rather than 'complain' only to die from it going undiagnosed.

1w) A weak man could be one who moved out of the neighboorhood when warned of terrorist attack.

2w)A weak man could be one who let his drowning dog drown.

3w) A weak man could be one who went straight to hospital when he first got a pain in his chest.

Which would you rather be now?
 
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definately weak, number 3 is bullshit, i never complained about my broken thumb and let it go for over a week, anyway to cut a long story short i was 2 days from having my thumb perminantly offset, and over a heart attack i would much rather look a pussy than have a heart attack
 
thedevilsreject said:
definately weak, number 3 is bullshit, i never complained about my broken thumb and let it go for over a week, anyway to cut a long story short i was 2 days from having my thumb perminantly offset, and over a heart attack i would much rather look a pussy than have a heart attack

now some could say that:
attending to yourself promptly and ignoring any opposition who may call you a 'pussy'
or
ignoring 'conditoning to endure sufferring without complaint'


demonstrates 'bravery'.

Is bravery and weakness thus all in the eye of the beholder? A matter of perspective?
 
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thedevilsreject said:
definately weak, number 3 is bullshit, i never complained about my broken thumb and let it go for over a week, anyway to cut a long story short i was 2 days from having my thumb perminantly offset, and over a heart attack i would much rather look a pussy than have a heart attack

now some could say that:
attending to yourself promptly and ignoring any opposition who may call you a 'pussy'
or
ignoring 'conditoning to endure sufferring without complaint and deny seeking help'

demonstrates 'bravery'.

Is bravery and weakness thus all in the eye of the beholder? A matter of perspective?
 
Theoryofrelativity said:
now some could say that:
attending to yourself promptly and ignoring any opposition who may call you a 'pussy'
or
ignoring 'conditoning to endure sufferring without complaint and deny seeking help'

demonstrates 'bravery'.

Is bravery and weakness thus all in the eye of the beholder? A matter of perspective?
after reading that do you think that it is possible to be both?
 
thedevilsreject said:
after reading that do you think that it is possible to be both?

rather depends on the situation,

in the cases you cited it is wiser to seek help and attend to yourself, any perceived 'bravery' in declining help is a false truth.

To seek help is not a demonstration of bravery, but as denying or ignoring help is detrimental, not seeking help is not 'brave'. Unless bravery is equal to stupidity.

The only reason the word brave comes into this scenario at all is that we have falsley created a cultural 'norm' where it is considered as you say 'pussy' to attend to yourself. Thus going against this conditioning is braver than not.
 
i have to say that the only reason i never complained was that it didnt hurt that much, i only thought that i have knocked it badly
 
thedevilsreject said:
i have to say that the only reason i never complained was that it didnt hurt that much, i only thought that i have knocked it badly

Then this is a matter of judgement (poor as it happened but it could easily have been correct) and thus not a matter of bravery. The brave 'issue' arose only after you realised how badly hurt it was, then you considered, 'how brave was I, going around with a broken thumb for two weeks?'
 
i was actually rather scared when i went to hospital

basically i only went to hospital after i had a tetanus shot and my hand turned a violent green and purple. i had no idea what was going on and thought i had had a violent reaction to the shot. it was only then they told me my thumb was broken. during those moments it was relief rather than the feeling of how brave i was. on the way to the hospital before i found out the only thought going through my head was what the fuck is going on
 
Theoryofrelativity said:
Is bravery and weakness thus all in the eye of the beholder? A matter of perspective?

I think you could well say that and be correct. I think bravery and cowardice or weakness is a conditioning of the society in which one is raised.

Without getting into the bullshit of terrorism, some seem to think that it's the ultimate of bravery to strap on some explosives, walk into a happy, unsuspecting wedding party and blow up all the innocent women and children. Yet some societies might deem that very same act as the act of a coward and/or a weak person. So ...which is it? And who is to decide?

Baron Max
 
Ahh, Hugs, I just thought I'd stop by and see if the foolish idealism was still alive and well at sciforums .....and it is!! I'm sure that I won't be able to take it much longer. Idealism untempered by reality is just so much smoke and hot air ...I find that I have to get away before I laugh myself silly. :)

Like the idiocy of: "Why can't we just all get along?" ....LOL!! ...LOL!!

It just seems so silly and so foolish for someone to say or think that when right here, at the illustrious, liberalistic, idealistic sciforums, there is more disagreement than anywhere else on Earth! and I suspect that, if the membership were able, there'd be major wars and death and killing going on all the time! ...LOL!

If we can't actually face reality and learn to live with it, then we ain't much, are we?

Baron Max
 
Baron Max:

"And who decides what's "proper"?"

The individual based on rational decision.

"And, of course, based on what information or evidence?'

The evidence available.

"Also, is that to say that the exact same decision could be judged "proper" in different ways by different people?"

Technically not, practically yes. That is to say, technically there is only one truly proper way which achieves the greatest results, but practically speaking, people will differ on the specifics of this.

"If unsure, choose death? Why? Wouldn't it be a better course of action to wait until one has enough info so as to make such a monumental decision?"

Often one either: 1. Does not have such time to act as death is being pushed upon you. 2. The situation passes and one is placed in a negative situation which was the result of inaction.

Consider September 11th an example of the 2nd in regards to the cowards who did not fight back in the planes.

Moreover, it is always the case that one suffers greater from living when one ought to have died, then dying when one ought to have lived. Consider the Holocaust and the misery of the cowards who didn't fight back.

"Who was it that said something like, "Tis better to run away so as to fight another day." I.e., pretend to be meek and weak, then when the enemy is least suspecting, attack him and rip his lungs out!"

That can be useful at times. "All warfare is deception", says Sun Tzu. That being said, this is not always capable of working. There are times when this would be a smart tactic.

TheoryOfRelativity:

I think it was Aristotle who best addressed the notion of excesses that turn bravery into foolihardiness and the deficiency which makes it into cowardice. The idea is to match, as best as possible, one's actions to the situation, as well as considering what one can accomplish through doing the set of one's choices in any given dilemma.

Moreover, we must consider the fact that nothing risked, nothing gained. If we do not accept a degree of uncertainty in our life, boosted by our strengths, we cannot achieve anything. The safe road is not always the best.

"'pussy' to attend to yourself."

As an Englishwoman, you should well know that the British are characterized as almost comically stoic. In fact, so much so that many humourous stories about such apathy towards suffering become almost more believable than the truth. Here's an example:

Following the battle of Waterloo, Duke Wellington turned to a lietenant of his, noticed that his leg had been blown cleanly off. Clearly thinking this would be best to alert the man to, the somewhat nonchalantly notes, "By jove, my good man, I believe you have lost your leg!" After which the lieutenant, all but oblivious to the bloody stump hanging off the side of his horse, looks down, and comments dryly, "I believe so, commander. Oh well, I believe I shall take my tea early today."

Now, whether or not the lieutenant ought to have responded thus is of no consequence, really, for this is but a carciature and few take it as anything else. But it manifestly does seem that being stoic and non-complaining is a virtue, specifically when nothing can be done about it. But at the same time, no sane, rational person, would say that were it within his power to reattach his limb, that he oughtn't have, nor that one in general should not seek attention for something which is major enough to warrant such things, only that one needn't be a nagging, imbecilic, disgustingly weak complainer about it. Moreover, if we become too reliant on seeking outside help, we often diminish our own strengths, and thus render ourselves useless to both ourselves and to those others which we have privileged with our services. But then again, it is absurd to take this to an extreme which some do and which only causes harm. Balance is key.

But in regards to the mugging, I do believe you acted improperly. You saw an opportunity to act justly and to diminish the evil in this world, and through not doing so, increased it. That this is only a minor evil - despite your fears that he might want to kill or rape you, as I presume you felt - is fortunate, but you also left it up to his mercy whether you ought to live or to die. Giving into evil does not assure survival.
 
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Theoryofrelativity:

"You are so wrong, you can't diminsh evil by getting yourself killed when all the odds are against you being successful. You just encourage it to perpetuate, based on the success of it!"

Success? Criminals work on the foundation that their victims will not fight back. Even a failed attempt at trying to defeat them leads them to a greater fear which instills within them a hesitation.

"The item taken was nothing more than an umbrella"

Wow, they attempted to rob you of an umbrella? That's ridiculously pety on their part.

"The guy that took it walked down a deserted subway, looking back all the time, wanting us to follow him. Why did he weant us to follow him? What awaited us down that subway? The same fate that met two girls in the previous weeks at the same location, gang rape? No, no-one risks life and limb for an umbrella, or any monetry matter . We were 16yrs old girls , he was a man. "

Two women fighting one man? I think you could have dealt him some serious blows. Throw him into the tracks, for one, and you'd have killed him.

But yes, what a pety thing for him to steal!
 
perplexity said:
I have often resisted in the way that James would have it, and may well do so again, and for the same reason, and with the scars and brusises to show for it, recorded on file with the Metropolitan Police Force, which is why I would not recommend to anybody else to do the same, nor criticise them for failing to, nor would a member of the police force or a hospital casualty unit, or anybody else who knows what they are talking about.

--- Ron.



Everyone should know their limits it is realistic not cowardice.
 
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The options are pretty ambiguous, but I've chosen the first one.

I do not mean that I would rather die than part with my money or property under threat.
But I do mean that I would rather die than, for instance, kill another (innocent) person.

It is not a question of what I get after death (I don't believe there will be anything). It's rather a question of what choices you make now. I cannot choose to kill another (innocent, again; to be understood from now) person now. I cannot live happily if I do that. And it isn't even by pondering upon the consequences that I choose to die then. I'm only aware of my action at that point in time. And at that point it is impossible for me (in being consistent with my character and ethics) to choose to kill someone.

Again, I do not get rewarded for sticking to my ethical system. But I will be punished if I don't. Zero (since there is no unhappiness wither after death) being better that negative, I choose the zero.

And then there is always the factor of say, confidence or hope. For example if I see someone in danger, I might <I>risk</I> (not sacrifice) my life to save him. It is so because of my sense of confidence in myself. The same thing applies when I prefer to do an important work myself rather than leave it to someone else. Because I have more confidence in myself than in any other person. But this has exceptions in that I may not have more confidence in myself than in the other person in certain situations, or regarding certain fields of work. I may not try to rescue a cop from a fire (given he is not struck down or utterly unable to escape by himself due to some reason), because I have more confidence in him than in myself in such a situation. And I will leave it to a doctor to treat me because I am not one myself and have no knowledge of medicine.
 
Kendall said:
Fear is the mind killer! I would feel dead if I had to lie to live!


why do you have to lie?

why is fear the mind killer, if you are saving someone it is because you fear they will die, if you did not fear it, you would not bother attempting to save them
 
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