Did Jesus really die on the cross !!!!

L

Lord Insane

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Howdy !!

Inspired by MW , who in another thread (chromosomes) questioned the resurrection of mr.J - I just ask this question , what is the proof of Jesus dying on the cross ????

I remember recently having seen a program on Discovery Channel (this easter)
claiming, that there was no such proof , and that believing in the death of Jesus , was just that : BELIEVING ......

What are your thoughts on this topic ?
 
Well , I think the answer to this question must come in two parts :
1) crucifixions in general and "survival" of pronounced death.
2) the statements in the bible.
 
1) it is well known, that normally you were tortured and then crucified - but even so, you often lived several days on the cross

http://www.custance.org/old/seed/ch29s.html

Also in the old days - and up to the 19.th century - it was not uncommon that people were afraid of beeing burried alive , even if a doctor had pronounced them dead -
some people even had a string in their coffin , connected to a bell above on their grave, so that if they woke up (and some did) then they could pull the string .
 
The only authority of Crucifixion in the bible , is actually Pontius Pilate - he is supposed to have crucified hundreds of people - especially during the samaritan uprise ..... he definitely had a lot of experience in crucifixion .....
 
According to the bible (Mark 15:25) Jesus was crucified on the 3.rd hour (9 am) and he says together with Matthew (Matt 27:46 , Mark 15:34) that is was about the 9.th hour (3 pm ) that Jesus complained of having beeing forsaken by God and that is was shortly after this he " yielded up the ghost".

Luke gives us the time of the crucifixion : from the 3.rd hour to the 6.th hour:
9 am. to 12 noon .......and fixes the time when Jesus gave up his ghost as 6.th hour
(12 noon)

So Jesus was only on the cross either 3 , or at the most 6 hours !!!!!!!
 
What did Pontius Pilate (the only expert and authority on crucifixion in the bible ) say to this ,when Joseph of Arimathaea wanted to take the body down from the cross) :

Mark 15:44 : And Pilate marvelled if he was allready dead

Pontius simply could NOT understand that Jesus should have died so quickly - something was clearly wrong here ........
 
And Pontius asked the centurion , if it was true .......

Well , here we have to go to:¨
John 19:34
which hold the only death certificate of Jesus that we will ever get
( NO death certificate by an real MD , sorry )

John 19:34 :
" but one of the soldiers pierced his side , and fortwith came there out blood and water "

So they took him down and gave him to Joseph of Arimathaea , believing he was dead !!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Well , I happen to be a fully qualified MD , and yes , I have graduated in my studies in forensic medicine :

"To distinguish a wound added postmortem from a wound added while the victim was still alive , you have to look at the excretion from the wound .
A postmortem incision (wound) will NOT excrete fluids or blood , except for a few drops at the most, because the bloodcirculation has stopped, when the heart is not beating anymore.....
In this way you can for certain distinguish , whether the person was alive or not , when the incision (wound) was made "

This is from the official teaching book in forensic medicine ( the bible of the coroner) ,
so by medical science it is CERTAIN that Jesus was ALIVE , when he was taken down from the cross !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Well , we now know that Jesus only fainted - heat, dehydration , all the things he had been through , even thinking that God had abandonded him - but in the grave he woke up - and the rest is history ...... people thinking , that he actually died , and was resurrected by the help of God - well, if you want to believe that , then you are wellcome .........

But please realise , that it clearly did NOT happen for real .......
 
Paraclete: could you possibilly write all your answers in one post, instead of spaming.
and to lord insane there is no evidence that a jesus, ever existed, so the question is moot.
 
Question? the Romans were very efficent in administering the death penality, the body would have been hanging from the cross, the spearhead would be approxamatetly 11in. long X 3in. wide, would the blood be pooling down in the body due to gravity, and with the scourging would it be possable that a post mortum wound would allow drainage, there must have been some time between the request for the body and checking it with the spear and then granting permission to remove the body for burial and then actually doing so wich knowing the Romans, they would have suppervised?
 
when you crucify someone, the cause of death is drowning. because of the angle of the body in relation to the cross, the torso will hang forward (hence, the arm restraints). hanging a body in this fashion causes fluid to build in the lungs. im not sure about blood, but i DO know that the lungs would be filled with "water".

as to the timeframe, it wasnt unknown for people to live several days in this state, so i seriously doubt that jesus would have died in 6 or even 9 hours of hanging. its just inconsistent with what we know about the human body....especially a human body that could survive absolute nutrient deprivation for 40 days in the desert, a body that walked across desert for days at a time, and a body that was in close contact with infectious diseases regularly for 3 years, without contracting even a single illness.

not to mention that he was a carpenter, which would imply that he was extremely physically fit for his time.

just doesnt add up.
 
Just as this is an off-shoot of MW's post, so will I off-shoot my post from the same thread. Does it really matter? You can analyze it as much as you want. If you want to believe or want to dispute, look at Jesus' words, which are still around today, not any artifacts that touched him. Whether he existed or not, is his words a lie? Do they sound like it? Why would someone or a people make up a false man and a false God? So they can go to false heaven for converting people to a false God? Makes no sense at all. Is it just a fictional story? Well, take it as a story then but are these man's words not words that we'd do well to live by even today? Do his words not run parrallel with your own philosophies and ideals? They do with mine. Whoever he was, I do not worship him, but I do heed his words and I believe them because of my own self. His head and mine think in parrallel and he seems a more reasonable man than anyone I know of. He uses reason which, you'd think, in the sciforums would run more rampant. Believe as you like but as you have the freedom or free will to believe or not to believe, you also have the freedom to fail, or do evil. So be cautious.
 
usp8riot said:
but are these man's words not words that we'd do well to live by even today? Do his words not run parrallel with your own philosophies and ideals? They do with mine. Whoever he was, I do not worship him,
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your quote was chopped up by me, but i think that this is the most important statement you said. more christians could learn from your example in this case.
 
A man who was conceived by a virgin mother can not exist in the first place, so how is it then possible for him to die?
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Who are we to say what God is possible of. My thought, the virgin birth could be a mistranslation, misinterpretation, a story changed through time by many mouths, or could have possibly happened by God. Of course it is possible for virgins to be impregnated by invetro in these times, or maybe there is some scientifically feasible explanation to the virgin birth. I am no historian so I don't like to comment on such matters as I wasn't there but that's my 2 cents.
 
Lord Insane said:
Howdy !!

Inspired by MW , who in another thread (chromosomes) questioned the resurrection of mr.J - I just ask this question , what is the proof of Jesus dying on the cross ????

I remember recently having seen a program on Discovery Channel (this easter)
claiming, that there was no such proof , and that believing in the death of Jesus , was just that : BELIEVING ......

What are your thoughts on this topic ?
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, I saw that. Made sense to me.
Personally, I don't think Jesus was just one person. I think the character "Jesus" was a composite of many leadership figures in the region at that time, who were coagulated into one person for the purposes of telling a story, a fable, with a moral, much like Aesop's Fables. The moral, the message of this story was peace, happiness, and kindness to your fellow human being, and peace with yourself. However, in the subsequent years, it became muddled and mixed up with politics, power, etc...like any "good idea"...and gets turned into a "Belief system". Then people start concentrating on the "chosen one" part more than the real point.
Funny thing about Chris Rock, is that he's usually right. And guess what, he was right in the film Dogma. ;)

usp8riot said:
Who are we to say what God is possible of. My thought, the virgin birth could be a mistranslation, misinterpretation, a story changed through time by many mouths, or could have possibly happened by God.
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No. It's biologically impossible, unless it's done via artificial insemination, which has only been developed within the last couple decades.
 
usp8riot said:
the virgin birth could be a mistranslation, misinterpretation, a story changed through time by many mouths,
Click to expand...
now change the words virgin birth for god, and use that very same reasoning to whether, god exists.
 
Hapsburg said:
No. It's biologically impossible, unless it's done via artificial insemination, which has only been developed within the last couple decades.
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no, it isnt impossible.
there are several documented cases of pregnancy in a woman with her hymen intact.
ever hear of "dry humping"?
 
The Devil Inside said:
no, it isnt impossible.
there are several documented cases of pregnancy in a woman with her hymen intact.
ever hear of "dry humping"?
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*************
M*W: "Dry humping" is not likely to result in pregnancy. The environment conducive to a viable conception cannot involve air. Sperm are killed when air is present. "Dry humping" also generally involves total penetration. Conception occurs with total penetration occurs -- penis to cervix.
 
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