Did Jesus ever claim to be the messiah?

[Medicine*Woman]

Re: Re: Crucifixion

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
What a sad and perverted joke you are ...

Like I said, you don't know me. Since you see me as a sad and perverted joke, it's only a reflection of how you see yourself.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Re: Why would they forge the Bible?

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Saul/Paul was a shrewd businessman. He has also written under the name of Josephus.

I'm waiting for your substantiation, Miss Culty.

 

[Circe]

M*W,

So when you say that it is believed that the crucifixion had been staged, you mean that the authors of the books you've mentioned believe so. How credible are they? Take Icke, for example - the man who claimed to be the son of god and who stated that some of today's most powerful people are descended from an extraterrestrial race of reptiles.

Thanks for that but I was hoping that you'd come up with a list of reliable scholars that support the mock crucifixion theory.

And also, I, like CA, would appreciate If you could elaborate on the Saul-Josephus connection.

 

[snow]

I read Josephus's autobiography just now and one fact has lead me to believe that M W is wrong about the Paul-Josephus connection.In his autobiography Josephus claims to have met Jesus,But Paul never met Jesus,he became a Christain after the acention of Jesus,so I do not believe the two had any connection.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Saul/Paul = Josephus

Originally posted by snow
I read Josephus's autobiography just now and one fact has lead me to believe that M W is wrong about the Paul-Josephus connection.In his autobiography Josephus claims to have met Jesus,But Paul never met Jesus,he became a Christain after the acention of Jesus,so I do not believe the two had any connection.

The source of this is Jesus, the Last Pharoah of Jesus, by Ralph Ellis. The author stated that Paul wrote in the name Josephus (I do not know if this is the same Josephus; surely there were more than one). Paul was alleged to have written that he knew Jesus, even though he had never met Jesus. This source is the only one that I have read that said Paul wrote in the name of Josephus. This is just another account of some of the underhanded things Paul was supposed to have done in his massive marketing campaign of Jesus Christ.

 

[okinrus]

Why are you defaming Paul so much? And where is stuft about Paul doing underhand marketing attempts. Are you seriously suggesting that he wrote as Josephus so that he could throw in a 6 line blurb about christianity? So what was Paul exactly selling anyways?

You want to spread some crazy theory about how Jesus did not die. Well here is quote from someone who knew John the apostle that says he did die.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-31.htm#P2846_461430

How exactly do you explan the <a href="http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-33.htm#P2998_487293">letter to Mary</a>?

"Avoid those that deny the passion of Christ, and His birth according to the flesh: and there are many at present who suffer under this disease. But it would be absurd to admonish thee on other points, seeing that thou art perfect in every good work and word, and able also to exhort others in Christ. Salute all that are like-minded with thyself, and who hold fast to their salvation in Christ. The presbyters and deacons, and above all the holy Hero, salute thee. Cassian my host salutes thee, as well as my sister, his wife, and their very dear children. May the Lord sanctify thee for evermore in the enjoyment both of bodily and spiritual health, and may I see thee in Christ obtaining the crown!"

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Paul

Originally posted by okinrus
Why are you defaming Paul so much?

Did you not know that it has been documented that Paul was hated by James, the brother of Jesus, and Jesus' family? I've read this repeatedly documented in the literature, and it makes sense to me. Read Paul: The Mythmaker of Christianity, all the books by Laurence Gardner, Jesus, the Last Pharoah of Egypt by Ralph Ellis, to name a few.

Why does it matter so much to you about Paul? Surely you know that Paul created the myth of Jesus' deity by falsely writing about his death from crucifixion and his resurrection? Paul was to have coined and sold amulet-type coins to those who were afflicted with the promise of healing them. He was the first "faith-healer" for profit. Paul changed his identity for the convenience of making money. He went from a Roman citizen to tent maker to even posing as the resurrected Jesus!

Xianity did not stem from Jesus, it was created by Paul. This has been documented all over the place, okinrus, but I realize you only read the Bible, so you wouldn't know.

 

[Flores]

The Quran confirms that Jesus is the Messiah

What is the significance of the Messiah, I have no idea, but Jesus is indeed the Messiah.

[3.45] When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).


The Quran mentions that Jesus name is the Messiah, Jesus the son of Marium. The Messiah is a chosen one worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter. Jesus life was known to god and prechosen to have a good life, death, and resurrection. Jesus was the only prophet given such a blessing of a confirmed salvation and blessing in the afterlife.

 

[okinrus]

Did you not know that it has been documented that Paul was hated by James, the brother of Jesus, and Jesus' family? I've read this repeatedly documented in the literature, and it makes sense to me. Read Paul: The Mythmaker of Christianity, all the books by Laurence Gardner, Jesus, the Last Pharoah of Egypt by Ralph Ellis, to name a few.

You have your chance. List the name of the primary source where it says that James hated Paul. Is it from this <a href="http://www.centuryone.com/5773-X.html">book</a>. Read the review by the NYT. Are you comming up with this because James says that faith without works is dead. Unfortunatly he also says not to hate.

Paul wrote his much of his gospel in a roman prision. If he was such a mythmaker, then why would have been beheaded?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Paul, the Mythmaker

Originally posted by okinrus
You have your chance. List the name of the primary source where it says that James hated Paul. Is it from this <a href="http://www.centuryone.com/5773-X.html">book</a>. Read the review by the NYT. Are you comming up with this because James says that faith without works is dead. Unfortunatly he also says not to hate.

Paul wrote his much of his gospel in a roman prision. If he was such a mythmaker, then why would have been beheaded?

I'm at work now, but I'll look up the quotes from the references I have at home. I'm not "coming up" with this because of the James quote. Why is not hating unfortunate? It is unfortunate to hate!

Sometimes I spend hours at Barnes & Noble reading and not buying, so I don't have all the references at hand. However, I have read in several sources about Jesus' family dislike and distrust of Paul. This information is also on the Internet.

As far as Paul getting beheaded, I haven't read-up on that yet, but now you've got my curiosity up.

See, okinrus, even though we are at opposite poles religiously, we still can learn from each other.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by okinrus
You want to spread some crazy theory about how Jesus did not die.

You have no proof that Jesus did indeed die. The Quran mention that Jesus didn't die the way people thought he did. Jesus stay on earth was terminated by god in a manner not known or revealed to humans and the Christians made up the stories about the crucifiction and ressurection.

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
[4.159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

[3.55] And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jesus lived happily ever after the crucifixion.

okinrus, you asked for solid references, and Flores gave you a solid reference from the Quran that Jesus didn't die as the Bible teaches. Sure, I can provide you with references from modern literature, but the Quran has been around a lot longer. Why is it you people want to argue with everyone else? I, for one, do not care that you believe Jesus died for your sins, therefore, you believe you will have obtained eternal life when you die. And I would not let any Xian belief alter the fact that I believe NO ONE died for my sins but that the Soul (everlasting life) is within everyone regardless of what they believe.

I'm sure if your churches knew that you and the other Xians were on a website like sciforums, they would frown on it and insist that you quit participating so that any of the possiblility of demons found here would not take over your soul.

 

[okinrus]

I'm at work now, but I'll look up the quotes from the references I have at home. I'm not "coming up" with this because of the James quote. Why is not hating unfortunate? It is unfortunate to hate!

Even if James kind of distrusted Paul, he would never go to extreme hatred.

As far as Paul getting beheaded, I haven't read-up on that yet, but now you've got my curiosity up.

M*W I thought you saw the site of his death.

You have no proof that Jesus did indeed die. The Quran mention that Jesus didn't die the way people thought he did.

As of right now, I will just treat this as an account from a human author 600 years after Christ died who presents no evidence to back it up. I really have to question even what Muhammed or God, meant by what is given in the Quran. Was Jesus taken up on the cross and then died early by the hand of God to save him from the pain? Or is Muhammed(Allah) only emphasizing the fact that only God gives life and takes it away? There is more than one possible interpretation of Quran here.

Jesus stay on earth was terminated by god in a manner not known or revealed to humans and the Christians made up the stories about the crucifiction and ressurection.

Some facts must be known here. The Quran does not say that Jesus' death was not revealed by humans, just that he did not die by crucifixation. You have no truth that christians made up stories of the crucifiction and resurrection. In fact, Isaiah 53 predicts the suffering of the Messiah, the servent of God.

Why is it you people want to argue with everyone else? I, for one, do not care that you believe Jesus died for your sins, therefore, you believe you will have obtained eternal life when you die. And I would not let any Xian belief alter the fact that I believe NO ONE died for my sins but that the Soul (everlasting life) is within everyone regardless of what they believe.

Yes you should care. You are passing off inaccurate information with out any citations and defaming a saint whose been dead for 2000 years. Worse I've found similar people who actually believe this life. Everyone's soul is everlasting, God will not take away this decreed. So if your soul is not in a perfect state, how can there be any heaven? Unless if God somehow purifies your soul, you will wallow in unhappiness and sin eternally.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by okinrus

M*W I thought you saw the site of his death.

Yes I was in the dungeon where Peter and Paul were executed, but I haven't read up on the history of why it happened.


As of right now, I will just treat this as an account from a human author 600 years after Christ died who presents no evidence to back it up. I really have to question even what Muhammed or God, meant by what is given in the Quran. Was Jesus taken up on the cross and then died early by the hand of God to save him from the pain? Or is Muhammed(Allah) only emphasizing the fact that only God gives life and takes it away? There is more than one possible interpretation of Quran here.

I don't think Muhammed is considered to be Allah.


Some facts must be known here. The Quran does not say that Jesus' death was not revealed by humans, just that he did not die by crucifixation. You have no truth that christians made up stories of the crucifiction and resurrection. In fact, Isaiah 53 predicts the suffering of the Messiah, the servent of God.

Isaiah may have said it, but I don't think he was talking about Jesus.
Sometimes these ancient texts have been mistranslated (skewed to whomever's design) and are not accurate.

Yes you should care.

Why should I care? If its the truth it wouldn't be questioned. If its not the truth it should be questioned. Either way, ancient history won't change, it will just be reformed by whatever spins are played.

okinrus, Paul may be a Saint to you, but to me he is no more than a charlatan.

You are passing off inaccurate information with out any citations and defaming a saint whose been dead for 2000 years.

Like I've said before, I am not Biblical scholar. I do enjoy reading and researching about things I find to be questionable.

Worse I've found similar people who actually believe this life.
This statment doesn't make any sense. Can you rephrase it?

Everyone's soul is everlasting, God will not take away this decreed. So if your soul is not in a perfect state, how can there be any heaven? Unless if God somehow purifies your soul, you will wallow in unhappiness and sin eternally.

I will agree with you on the points you made about the Soul. Fortunately, my life has been quite blessed, so I will never have to wallow in "unhappiness and sin" now or ever.