Did Jesus' disciples need proof of Jesus' word?

N

NDS

NDS
Registered Senior Member
John 2:18-22
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?" 19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
NKJV


Does the passage above suggest that the disciples needed Jesus' prophesy to be fulfilled in order to fully believe Jesus' word?
 
Remember Thomas?

NDS said:
John 2:18-22
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?" 19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
NKJV


Does the passage above suggest that the disciples needed Jesus' prophesy to be fulfilled in order to fully believe Jesus' word?
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What is merely needed is faith as a grain of mustard seed...There were even disciples who could not accept the words of the Christ...and therefore left Him.
 
kerux said:
What is merely needed is faith as a grain of mustard seed.
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Okay, but how is that faith attained? In this case, it was attained through Jesus making a prophesy and that prophesy being fulfilled.
 
The Story of Jesus is to write animated letters

NDS said:
Okay, but how is that faith attained? In this case, it was attained through Jesus making a prophesy and that prophesy being fulfilled.
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Actually, look around you things as were not seen before. Sciences as were not advocated before. In fact, st. Paul testifies to these:

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: I Timothy 6:20

why not ask my presiding minister esoriano.wordpress.com ?
 
Did Jesus' disciples need proof of Jesus' word?:
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as there's no real evidence for a jesus, it goes without saying that the same must apply to the disciples, so given that anything you can imagine would be appropriate, after all there all fictional.
 
geeser said:
as there's no real evidence for a jesus, it goes without saying that the same must apply to the disciples, so given that anything you can imagine would be appropriate, after all there all fictional.
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I couldn't help a quick ROFL about this one geeser...

There's plenty of evidence e.g. four accounts of his life in the Gospels, (not to mention other gospels) written during the lifetime of those who knew Jesus. References by Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger as well as others. References in the Talmud also exist.

What there isn't is absolute proof. But then there is no proof of the existence Socrates, or most other historical figures. Most wacky theories e.g. holocaust denyers, conspiracy theorists etc. exploit similar loopholes So, it's possible to make a case that the US ever really landed on the moon, or that JFK was actually shot by the CIA or that Hitler was a gentle peace-loving vegetarian - by casting various doubts on all the mass of evidence that exists to the contrary! However, all such cases are powered by strong ulterior motives.
 
The disciples were only a channel of communication, a way for Christ to leave his wisdom to mankind. But the disciples were men, and men need proof most of the times.
 
Diogenes' Dog said:
I couldn't help a quick ROFL about this one geeser...
There's plenty of evidence e.g. four accounts of his life in the Gospels, (not to mention other gospels) written during the lifetime of those who knew Jesus. References by Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger as well as others. References in the Talmud also exist.
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I too have lost my arse, with laughter, because of your reply, all the above have been refuted many times, on this forum and others, we can all have another laugh, if you wish to posit up some evidence, for jesus.
Diogenes' Dog said:
What there isn't is absolute proof. But then there is no proof of the existence Socrates, or most other historical figures.
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this to has been posted, more times than I can remember, are you only here to give me stitch, with all the hilarity your causing me.
Diogenes' Dog said:
Most wacky theories e.g. holocaust denyers, conspiracy theorists etc. exploit similar loopholes So, it's possible to make a case that the US ever really landed on the moon, or that JFK was actually shot by the CIA or that Hitler was a gentle peace-loving vegetarian - by casting various doubts on all the mass of evidence that exists to the contrary! However, all such cases are powered by strong ulterior motives.
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yes there are some nutjobs about, some people even believe theres a sky daddy, that watches over us, go figure, rotflmao.
 
geeser said:
I too have lost my arse, with laughter, because of your reply, all the above have been refuted many times, on this forum and others, we can all have another laugh, if you wish to posit up some evidence, for jesus. this to has been posted, more times than I can remember, are you only here to give me stitch, with all the hilarity your causing me. yes there are some nutjobs about, some people even believe theres a sky daddy, that watches over us, go figure, rotflmao.
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I said this before, and I will say it again:

"It is a known fact that by the II Century AC, Mithraism was the biggest religion movement across the Roman empire, Christianity was the second and growing. But the Roman Empire was so wide, that pagans, egyptians, greeks, phylosophers and astronomers had an important role in society as well. When the Romans created this Catholic Religion, and made it the official religion, they could not have done it with the sympathy of all the beliefs across the empire.
So they got pieces of every belief and incorporated them in this new movement. The adoption of imagery or icons or festivals was obvious (such as the adoption by Christendom of winter solstice or Saturnalia festivals (Mithraism) as Christmas) ammong many other apparent atrological similarities.

The thing is, why would the Romans made Jesus up, around the 3º Century AC, if Mithraism was the most popular religion ammong Romans? They already had Mythra, why would they make Jesus up?

"The Roman army first encountered the cult of Mithras in Persia (modern Iran) during the reign of the emperor Nero although its origins in India have been traced back to 1400 BC. One of the many mystery cults that the Romans introduced from the east, Mithraism first appealed to slaves and freedmen but with Mithras's title Invictus, the cult's emphasis on truth, honour and courage, and its demand for discipline soon led to Mithras becoming a god of soldiers and traders. "
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/mithras/text.htm

So Romans were warlords by excellence, and believed in Mithras, god of soldiers and trader.

But why would they make Jesus up? Jesus spread the word of love and peace, the Romans weren´t exactly known for those virtues were they?"
 
Wisdom_Seeker said:
The thing is, why would the Romans made Jesus up,
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I can think of a very good reason, but thats neither here nor there as he never exist, he's just another hero in a story (book), because, the romans never wrote of a jesus, there were many people known as jesus, but none written about that appeared in the gospels. the only aledged roman writings have been totally debunked as forgeries, the romans kept meticulous records, so they never made him up, sorry.
Wisdom_Seeker said:
romans believed in Mithras, god of soldiers and trader.
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the emperor Constantine, brought christianity to rome about 300 + years later, after a night obviously drunk, he haluncinated, and saw a cross in the sky, and thus was converted to christianity.
 
Diogenes' Dog said:
I couldn't help a quick ROFL about this one geeser...

There's plenty of evidence e.g. four accounts of his life in the Gospels, (not to mention other gospels) written during the lifetime of those who knew Jesus. References by Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger as well as others. References in the Talmud also exist.

What there isn't is absolute proof. But then there is no proof of the existence Socrates, or most other historical figures. Most wacky theories e.g. holocaust denyers, conspiracy theorists etc. exploit similar loopholes So, it's possible to make a case that the US ever really landed on the moon, or that JFK was actually shot by the CIA or that Hitler was a gentle peace-loving vegetarian - by casting various doubts on all the mass of evidence that exists to the contrary! However, all such cases are powered by strong ulterior motives.
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Forgive me for being skeptical, but this 'evidence' states that this dude could physically levitate off into the sky (after death no less). That evidence would be dismissed out of hand in a court of law. No person exists or ever has existed who could do this myriad of miracles. So the rational conclusion is simple... this man never existed. If it was based on a real person, then that person is far removed from what was written about him after his alledged martyr death.

Never trust text with a religious bias. Thou shalt not lie... if only religious folk would follow that one.
 
geeser said:
I can think of a very good reason, but thats neither here nor there as he never exist, he's just another hero in a story (book), because, the romans never wrote of a jesus, there were many people known as jesus, but none written about that appeared in the gospels. the only aledged roman writings have been totally debunked as forgeries, the romans kept meticulous records, so they never made him up, sorry.

the emperor Constantine, brought christianity to rome about 300 + years later, after a night obviously drunk, he haluncinated, and saw a cross in the sky, and thus was converted to christianity.
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Your assumptions are kinda funny, there are about 156 texts written from 30AC to 250 AC, that talk about Jesus and not even one that talks about the forgery.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

The forgery conspirancy theory was invented in the modern times, and not even one old text that talks about that.

So you are telling me that 156 ancient texts are wrong, and the modern conspiracy theorists are right (almost none Bible scholars approve the forgery theory). And sorry about what man? you haven´t told me anything but your opinion, do you think that is going to change mine? You are not a Jedi man.
 
Your assumptions are kinda funny, there are about 156 texts written from 30AC to 250 AC, that talk about Jesus and not even one that talks about the forgery.
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Haven't you ever considered that perhaps one preacher started all this nonsense, and found a few dedicated people to spread the same nonsense? At the end of it all you have a world full of people who believe that the offspring of the creator of the universe was on Earth and he died to save us all and will give us eternal life... with one big condition of course... we must join their religion.

The same psychology of a religious person who wants to put a bumper sticker on the back of their car to 'spread the message' is the exact same as that of the power hungry nomads who started all this nonsense in the first place. Their bullshit story is just incidental.

So all those 156 texts could just be copycatting each other based on a dubious origin. Truth it most certainly isn't.
 
KennyJC said:
Haven't you ever considered that perhaps one preacher started all this nonsense, and found a few dedicated people to spread the same nonsense? At the end of it all you have a world full of people who believe that the offspring of the creator of the universe was on Earth and he died to save us all and will give us eternal life... with one big condition of course... we must join their religion.

The same psychology of a religious person who wants to put a bumper sticker on the back of their car to 'spread the message' is the exact same as that of the power hungry nomads who started all this nonsense in the first place. Their bullshit story is just incidental.

So all those 156 texts could just be copycatting each other based on a dubious origin. Truth it most certainly isn't.
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No they aren´t copies, I have read a lot of them, and the reason why there are only 4 cannonical gospels is because there are many other teachings Jesus did.

Not even one of the documents states that you should join a religion man, I believe in Christ, and I´m not from any religion.
 
Wisdom_Seeker said:
No they aren´t copies, I have read a lot of them, and the reason why there are only 4 cannonical gospels is because there are many other teachings Jesus did.
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2 of the gospels in the new testament (I forget which ones) are virtually carbon copies... In many cases copying sentences word for word. One was clearly heavily influenced by the other, they are not individual accounts.

Not even one of the documents states that you should join a religion man, I believe in Christ, and I´m not from any religion.
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It is implied that if you believe in Jesus, then you are a christian of one sect or another, that you are part of that religion, that the propagandists have succeeded in converting you to their scripture.

Also, stating that you believe in Christ is vague. Do you believe that someone existed in which the gospels are based on? Or do you believe that all the things in those gospels are true. In which case you really are gullible if you think anyone has existed who carried out those miracles... miracles in which were only added to the story for effect... as a simple story about a real life person isn't enough to carry power or convert people. There are clear motives for religious writers to include miracles as an emotional bribe.
 
Wisdom_Seeker said:
No they aren´t copies, I have read a lot of them, and the reason why there are only 4 cannonical gospels is because there are many other teachings Jesus did.

Not even one of the documents states that you should join a religion man, I believe in Christ, and I´m not from any religion.
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no eye witness accounts for jesus
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=64654
the jesus myth
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=44410
no history for a jesus person
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=52294
these should help, if your truely seeking wisdom, wisdom seeker.
 
KennyJC said:
2 of the gospels in the new testament (I forget which ones) are virtually carbon copies... In many cases copying sentences word for word. One was clearly heavily influenced by the other, they are not individual accounts.
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Well, they probably come from the same source document, that says nothing.

KennyJC said:
It is implied that if you believe in Jesus, then you are a christian of one sect or another, that you are part of that religion, that the propagandists have succeeded in converting you to their scripture.

Also, stating that you believe in Christ is vague. Do you believe that someone existed in which the gospels are based on? Or do you believe that all the things in those gospels are true. In which case you really are gullible if you think anyone has existed who carried out those miracles... miracles in which were only added to the story for effect... as a simple story about a real life person isn't enough to carry power or convert people. There are clear motives for religious writers to include miracles as an emotional bribe.
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NO it is not implied that I am a Christian or any other cult for that matter. I believe in Christ as much as I believe in Buddha.
NO I´m not saying all the things of the Gospels are true, but Jesus did possess extraordinary virtues.
Yes there are propagandists, so?
Yes the Catholic Church is evil so?
Yes men are like monkeys who get crazy drunk on power, and there is no exception in Religions,,, so?

And what about the tomb of the Jesus family that was discovered?
It dated from the time of Jesus in a well documented carbon analysis.
The names of the tombs were:
- Joseph
- Mary
- Jesus, son of Joseph
- Jacob, brother of Jesus
- Mary Magdalene (DNA test proved no family relationship with Jesus)
- Judah, son of Jesus

And these names coincide with the early scriptures. Statistic analysis was performed, and the probability factor is in the order of 600 to 1 that an equally "surprising" cluster of names would arise purely by chance under given assumptions."

This was a roughly downgraded number, since only 20% of the tombs of the first century had inscriptions, and this all had inscriptions that dated from the time of Jesus.

So, if you don´t believe in the mythology of the story, then believe in the real Jesus.
http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/about/about.html
 
nova900 said:
Wisdom_Seeker:

Thought you might like to check this out.
This is one of Muata Ashbys' books. He writes extensively on Egyptian Mythology and their spiritual system.
I'm going to get this one. I have several of his other books. They are quite good.

http://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Journey-Jesus-Christ/dp/1884564054
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Awesome, I´m very interested in Egyptian Mythology, and have read many books on the subject.
I´m just having a glimpse at his literature, and is really interesting stuff, I will look into it later.
Thanks man.
 
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