Denial of Evolution VII (2015)

correct.
it was written by one of the editors of science.

it was a factual account of the conference.

It was a single perspective that contrasted with the perspectives of several more qualified attendees. That is a matter of record.

in order for you to use "opinion" you will need to prove lewin didn't take notes.

LOL. So if I write down some notes about something that happened, everything I say about what happened is suddenly elevated to the status of objective fact? Interesting.

like i said, it was a factual account of the conference.

It was a single perspective that contrasted with the perspectives of several more qualified attendees. That is a matter of record.

no, what you do is apologize profusely and hope people like ayala don't sue your balls off.

That's simply not how reporting on contentious issues that are largely a matter of opinion is handled.

are you serious???
hey look guys, are we lying or what.
what a riot RAV.

Science published 5 letters written by highly qualified individuals that made Lewin look like a bit of a doofus. Science did that. To one of their own staff.

Punishment enough for Lewin I think.

Goes with the territory though, so I bet he just sucked it up and got on with his job.

i would LOVE to have an explanation to all of this RAV.

Nonsense. You're merely pretending to be a truth seeker to make your denialism seem more reasonable.
 
Let me see if I have this correctly..
you haven't gotten anything right yet.
let's see how this goes.
You originally sourced the quote and the link on a creationist site and then went to JSTOR, which clearly showed it had appeared in Science Magazine.
YES !
You then used that one quote from that article, that was clearly a misrepresentation and which is always used by creationist sites through quote mining to try to deny evolution which is where you initially found it.
no.
the quotes i posted from the article CAME from the article.
You spend years denying evolution . . .
questioning its concepts, yes.
and use that particular quote as your reference and evidence, . . .
i never knew the quote existed until i read it on jstor.
all this retraction stuff surfaced after i posted the quotes.
and you deliberately ignore and misrepresent all evidence to that clearly shows you are absolutely wrong.
wrong about what bells?
i have been factual in this thread and i HAVEN'T been trying to twist things like you are.
And you are going to say that your argument has nothing to do with god or creationism?
yep, that's exactly what i'm a sayin'
If you do not want to be treated like a creationist denying evolution, perhaps you should stop denying evolution and using the same tactics and quotes employed by creationists when they try to deny evolution.
are you ok?
 
strawman.
i'm not claiming evolution is false.
So you think, as almost all educated people do, that evolution is the best explanation of the great diversity of life?
what does this have to do with the topic bill? the issue here is ayala, the magizine science, lewin, the letters.
For you that seems to be the case but read the thread's title.
Few, perhaps only you, think it worth even a minute of discussion what was said during heated discussion at a conference that was not in support of evolution and may have been reported and retracted by Science. I have zero interest in that so if by osmosis I don't have the facts correct - don't bother to correct me.

I understand why many deny evolution based on their "god the creator" faith, but you are a strange case - won't tell why you are obsessed by something which has been retracted and was not even worth discussing in the first place.
 
LOL. So if I write down some notes about something that happened, everything I say about what happened is suddenly elevated to the status of objective fact? Interesting.
the fact of the matter is, lewin didn't just sit there listening.
he took notes, and quite likely was versed in stenography.
he did not fish all of this "out of his head".
It was a single perspective that contrasted with the perspectives of several more qualified attendees. That is a matter of record.
a nice little dilemma wouldn't you say?
That's simply not how reporting on contentious issues that are largely a matter of opinion is handled.
really?
magazines don't get sued for slander?
You're merely pretending to be a truth seeker to make your denialism seem more reasonable.
i see, and your basis for this statement is what?
 
So you think, as almost all educated people do, that evolution is the best explanation of the great diversity of life?
it's the most reasonable.
For you that seems to be the case but read the thread's title.
you need to ask the administration why they named it "denial of evolution".
my aim in this thread is clear.
you are a strange case - won't tell why you are obsessed by something which has been retracted and was not even worth discussing in the first place.
it hasn't been "retracted" bill.
science is responsible for the alleged misquote, they retracted nothing.
 
The letters just complained about he was reporting on the conference. They did not demand or ask for a retraction.
correct.
you will note that NONE came from ayala.
you know, the guy that allegedly wrote to NAIG??
now tell me bells, why would ayala bitch to NAIG and not to the responsible party?
And stop with the conspiracy theories.
we might be exposing one right here and now bells.
has that thought ever crossed your mind?
or do you actually believe "it can't happen here"?
Also, you don't even know all that Lewin said, because if you did, then you would know that at no time did Lewin deny evolution. Far from it.
correct, which makes the article even more of a mystery doesn't it.
 
yes, fire is alive bill.
No, it's not. Fire does not inherit characteristics from earlier versions of fire. It does not mutate and retain those mutations.
seriously bill?
you don't wonder why science hasn't correct its mistake?
Nope. I bet if you go back to 1980 you could find a lot of mistakes it hasn't corrected.
the bottom line is, lewin reported on the conference fairly and accurately.
You have admitted that that is false.
 
are you trying to use this topic to argue ?
james brought it up, and i assume it was because he wanted some dialog on it.
i gave him some.

if we are going to implement this, then we need to give james the help he needs.
understand?
 
there is something i've noticed with your posts.
almost all, as in >95%, of your references are sourced from here (sciforums) ...
That is because I'm lazy (just repackaged old posts) and initially my (and the world's source) was a newspaper article in Portuguese. All the intitial papers came from the same Brazilian reaserch group (based at a Catholic university - the Pope accepts evolution as fact) more than a decade ago; however, now there are papers in English. The first I found was by Brazilian Carlos H. Salvador of Laboratory of Ecology and Conservation of Populations, Department of Ecology, Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, Box 68020, Rio de Janeiro, 21941-590, Brazil:
ABSTRACT Cavia intermedia is a rare cavy, endemic to the 10-ha Moleques do Sul Island, southern Brazil. We conducted the 1st study of reproductive and growth patterns for this species in its natural environment. Based on 17 months of monthly population monitoring using capture–mark–recapture methods, females were reproductively active throughout the year. Litter size was small (1 or 2 young per litter), with well-developed offspring that weighed approximately 19% of the mass of an adult female. Sexual maturity was reached later than in other species of this genus, at around 59 days of age or 70% of adult body size. There was no evidence that longevity was longer than for congeneric species. Other than longevity, these characteristics are consistent with the island syndrome, which may contribute to the persistence of this species.
If willing to sign up (free) you can read the entire paper. It probably is his Ph.D. study. It may be that you must be Brazilian to visit the tiny island for research. I bet by now these prea have made at least one Ph.D. for each of the original 40 population.

His comments on the small (1 or 2) litter size and delayed sexual maturity made me now realize other things* the struggle not to starve (food supply limited population to ~ 40 animals) selected for. I. e. rather than have 6 or so in the litter; A liter with only slightly more than 1 in the litter on average bigger (19% of their mother's mass!) and stronger at birth gives your genes had a better change of passing into the next generation. I.e. the population size was static for at least 7000 years. In this case it is best to "put all your eggs in one basket" or more accurately "have one or two bigger, stronger, off-springs than 6 who will all starve."

* I had already noted, that the prea's foreward looking eyes (for better depth perception) was a "free" advantage compared to side looking eyes their ancestors had as unlike them, the prea lived where there were no other animals, like a fox, eating them they needed to kept looking out for in ~360 degree range.

I had noted too that the development of much larger, stronger, rabbit-like hind legs was to be expected as they needed to jump over rocks to find blade of grass to eat, etc. (only a bout 10% of their tiny island has any grass and even it is mainly rocks.

I had also noted that being the smallest (the runt of the litter, if it was more than one, as I was assuming) was an advantage as you could survive with less food

And a few other things that were selected for I had discussed, but I did not know these "delayed sexual maturity and small liters" facts, until reading this article, but in hindsight, they obviously increase the chance your genes will live to reproduce / survive the desperate competition for blades of grass with 5 or 6 smaller, equally young, members of your generation..
 
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can't ask for better.

my denial?
i agree that i find the concept absurd.
OTOH, i find the concept of god equally absurd.
so, where does that leave people like me james?

do you honestly believe my "dispute" is imaginary?

i consider this "dispute" of mine unresolved.
it isn't an unreasonable position, given the circumstances.

The dispute is unreasonable and imaginary given the circumstances, but it is your right to argue it so long as there is some kind of new information to be had. But the Ayala quote was solved long, long ago - before the forum, even. It is a bone with no meat. In that context, it does sound like trolling to me. If there were some mystery about it, sure. But there isn't.
 
I've been considering this whole line for a little while and have come to a kind of conclusion:

Leopold, present your alternate explanation for the facts of the fossil record, DNA relationships among extant (and even extinct) flora and fauna (with higher relationships being observed among the presumably phenotypically more closely related) and the overwhelming preponderance of genes and gene systems that produce moderate changes in phenotype.

If you have a better synthesis - and not a misquote of Ayala - produce it. Otherwise, I have to side with those complaining about the near-constant harping on that one minor point, many of whom would prefer more bannings. I do not wish this, but the incessant referral to that unimportant comment is pointless.
 
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