Denial of Evolution VII (2015)

what "well established facts" am i rejecting?
i am not discussing evolution. ... .
I jumped back five page to before you were hung up on a mis-quote or now retracted error and immediately found post 305, where
You were discussing evolution and rejecting or misrepresenting facts:
{post 305} (1) by refusing to acknowledge these gaps, i believe you might be overlooking some important principles. for example:
(2) everyone seems to think evolution proceeds as a series of "improvements".
(3) i believe there might be some kind of catalyzing action involved.
(4) ... but the diversity of life is also the result of "catalyzing" action.
(5) goulds concept of spandrels would be the basis of this stuff.

On (1) No the gaps are explained, and expected but slowly filling in. For example Fossils for all the intermediate stages of the land mammal transformation into a whale have now been found.

On (2) No there is still discussion. long period of essesntially no change have lead to idea of "punctuated evolution" - periods of rapid change.

On (3) & (4) No & No. That is misuse of a chemical term the basic idea of which is some third agent speeds or makes possible a change from A to B. The closest to that, and it is not even evolution, but initiation of life, is some think organic molecules may have assemble into more complex structures on the surface of some naturally very regularly spaced on the atomic level crystal surfaces or even cleaved flakes of mica. Evolution has no "third agent" just random changes in the DNA, that later get selected for or against.

I guess you could argue that you disserve two "Yes"s here a God was the guiding "third agent." But that is much less plausible and lacks any factual support. The moon has been suggested; that the moon was an essential "third agent" without which life could not have evolved. (Moon makes tide, tidal pools etc. to vary the environment twice daily is the heart of this idea.)

On (5) No Gould's spandrels are even named for the paintable surface left between curved arches between major church walls - too small a space for some theme picture, but not often left un-occupied - much like a small biologically viable "niche" may or may not have some life form in it. - Certainly not the "basis of evolution" more like an accident along the way.

Perfect record of being wrong: "No" all 5 times. I. e. five errors or at best just poor understanding.

Why not try to refute post of the link I gave, showing a new mammal species evolved in only 8000 years!
 
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No, the actual words of the author stand. It's a simple concept in law, science and indeed common sense - the best authority for who said what is the person who said it.
so, why didn't science correct this bill?
you keep throwing out legalities, why is science unwilling to correct this in the face of those legalities?
why did ayala write to NAIG instead of science?
why did NAIG contact these other websites instead of science?
they could have cleared up this entire snafu with one letter bill.
others wrote to science about this article and blasted the shit out of it AND lewin.

is it becoming clear to you yet?
 
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sorry, NAIG wasn't/isn't the responsible party here, science is.
post the issue where NAIG or ayala contacted science.
this is all i want to see.
science trumps anything your personal website sources say bill.
You are the only person who has kept going on that Science received letters about what you perceive as the big issue. You have yet to provide any proof of this. Where are the letters you keep telling us were sent to Science about this? And no, telling me that someone somewhere posted them on this site is worthless. You have been found to be dishonest. You do not own the copy from Science, you cannot even quote directly to it, because you never read it from there. You also cannot even link to it on JSTOR, because you didn't read it there either. You read it on a creationist site.

You are the only one who believes that Ayala and others must contact Science to correct what your creationist website you sourced it from touted as major evidence against evolution. No one else believes this to be the case because it was clearly someone who misquoted what he believed another had said at a conference.

You would have to be the only person in the world who would refuse to acknowledge the direct and best source, which would be Ayala himself, because apparently to you, his actual words count for less than a story on Science magazine. And yes, this was a story, not a study.

The pathetic display you have been putting on for years also shows your hypocrisy.

The reason you refuse to acknowledge Ayala's actual words and instead prefer to rely on hearsay about what someone believes Ayala says is because you are a creationist who does not believe in evolution. In that sense, James is correct, you are a hack. Because you keep declaring that this is what Ayala said, but Ayala never said that and you refuse to actually believe Ayala when his actual words contradict your personal beliefs. Hence why creationists like you rely so much on a misquoted hearsay comment written in an article.
 
so, why didn't science correct this bill?
Because they didn't really care about correcting a 30 year old article that was neither peer-reviewed nor very important. It's akin to Popular Science refusing to correct an editorial mistake made in a 1978 article discussing the TRS-80 computer. You would have to go to great lengths to decide that therefore the TRS-80 didn't exist. (Which you might, if you had a desperate need to believe that it didn't for some reason.)

Here's a good summary of your approach to this issue:
=======================================================
The Quote Mine Project
Or, Lies, Damned Lies and Quote Mines
Introduction
by the talk.origins newsgroup Edited by John Pieret
Copyright © 2003-2006

O.gif
ne frequent creationist poster to the talk.origins newsgroup produced a long list of what he dubbed "Famous quotes from famous evolutionists" . It was not hard to discover that the list was taken, almost verbatim, from a creationist site called "Anointed-One.Net", where the list is called "Quotes by Famous Evolutionists." Lists like this, presented with little or no context except for vague claims that they somehow "disprove" evolution, are common among creationists. Indeed, entire books of these quotes have been published.

For a number of reasons, the posting of this list was illustrative of a persistent and basically dishonest practice, frequently engaged in by creationists, that has become known as "quote-mining." While the etymology of this term is obscure , the definition is clear enough. It is the use of a (usually short) passage, taken from the work of an authority in some field, "which superficially appears to support one's position, but [from which] significant context is omitted and contrary evidence is conveniently ignored" .

In response, numerous people took the trouble to look up the source material to learn the context of the passages. The result of this considerable effort demonstrated that these "quotes" were, in very large part, so out-of-context as to qualify as complete distortions of the authors' intent. As noted by Dana Tweedy, one of the responders:

Those quotations were carefully taken out of context, to change the meaning. The "evolutionist(s)" in those quotations [were] not admitting that "a portion of evolution" was "fraudulent". That is the whole point of a "lie of omission", to omit the part of the person's words that explains and clarifies the person's position. Those quotes you stole are classic lies of omission. They are false, and using them is perpetrating a falsehood . . .

Another responder, John Wilkins, continued in the same vein:

It is worth observing too that not only were these quotes taken carefully out of context, but that they must have been deliberately done so. After [unearthing the context] I could not find there is [any] way these could have been taken accidentally or in ignorance out of the context.

Several of them turn out to be railing against creationists. More than a few turn out to be making the exact opposite point [than the bare words seem to indicate] and at least one was reporting secondarily on the ideas of others in order to rebut them. Once is a mistake, twice is carelessness, three times could be stupidity, but the sheer volume of these is a deliberately planned campaign of disinformation.


Another aspect of this practice is that these "quotes" are widely passed around and used repeatedly by creationists, while neither bothering to check the original source nor giving any indication that they are taken from secondary sources. This is shown by the fact (as can be seen in a number of these cases) that there are errors that can and have crept into these quotes or their citations which are then propagated by other creationists when they are copied without attribution. (Ironically, this is the same type of "copying error", i.e. mutation, that can be used to trace phylogenetic histories of populations.) More importantly, such thoughtless iterations demonstrate an unwillingness to understand the underlying issues and an indifference to the ideas and reputations of the people whose names they are appropriating.

In addition, some of the "quotes" were outright fabrications; others were actually taken from creationist authors or other people who doubted, rather than supported, evolution (making their designation as "evolutionists" itself disingenuous); several were expressions of opinion by people with no expertise in fields related to evolution and many were so old as to be of no use at all in understanding present day evolutionary theory. The few quotes that can be said to be both in context and from knowledgeable proponents of evolution invariably discuss limited technical subjects which may appear, to those unfamiliar with the details of modern biology, to contradict evolutionary theory but, in fact, do not.

Of course, even if each and every one of these quotes was accurate and truly reflected the opinions of the authors, it would not matter a bit. If all eighty-six were from different scientists and all eighty-six thought evolution wrong, that would not begin to tip the consensus formed by hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of scientists from a broad range of fields that firmly hold evolution to be the only current scientific theory that explains all the myriad facts surrounding the nature of life on Earth.

Naturally enough, the question arises: 'If the quotes don't mean anything, why should we care enough to go to such great lengths to show these quotes for what they are?' The best answer came from John Wilkins:

The first issue is whether or not they have been correctly quoted. You know as well as I do that the only reason these quotes have been put up on the web and dittoed by the dittoheads like [the poster] is that they imply that these people do not think that evolution is true for some reason, and that the clever folk at AiG or wherever have "caught them in a slipup" that reveals their "true" beliefs. It is all a rhetorical trick.

They have not been correctly quoted (except, perhaps, for the creationists in that list who are been falsely touted as evolutionists). This is the first dishonesty. Because every single one of the quotes so far checked do intend to say that evolution is correct, and that what we see is consistent with it. All of them. You can dance around this issue all you like, but it is still a lie, and an egregious one. Doing this in a first year undergraduate essay would earn an instant failure. It is the very worst of scholarship.

The second issue is whether or not they are correct in their statements. Most of them are comments made about the punctuated equilibrium theory/model/pattern that was, at the time of most of these publications, a hot issue in evolutionary biology. There was considerable debate on the matter. The consensus that resulted, and which is in place today, is that evolution will show these sorts of patterns, both for the reasons Gould and Eldredge supposed (allopatric speciation) and for other reasons (nonlinear dynamics in populations). Hence, it is dishonest to imply, the way the quote miner does, that this is an unresolved issue in modern evolutionary biology.

The third act of dishonesty is that the quote miner is "cherry picking". This is the term for when you go looking through the literature to find cites that back up your own personal hobbyhorse. Of course in this case the hobbyhorse is that "evolutionists are themselves questioning Darwinism", but still it is a bad thing to do, morally and academically.
In short, these quote-mined lists come with their own context which makes them important to address. The site this list was "appropriated" from, for example, prefaces it with the following:

Before any serious dialogue of deity can be entertained, the subjects of spontaneous generation and evolution must first be addressed.

This is one of the more inflammatory topics of discussion, especially coming from a creation point of view. In order to gain as much credibility as possible and so you can understand why I feel the way I do, I will use words spoken by evolutionists.

Clearly this list is intended to provide support both for a particular religious view and for a denial of the scientific nature of evolutionary theory. The first is an egregious abuse of the views of most of the people quoted and the second is a blatant distortion (whether through ignorance or dishonesty) of the words themselves. In any event, to remain silent in the face of this tactic would be to be to fail the avowed purpose of Talk.Origins and, worse, to be complicit in the lie.
===========================​
 
You are the only person who has kept going on that Science received letters about what you perceive as the big issue. You have yet to provide any proof of this.
it was posted in one of the threads about this topic, and i'm not too sure who posted it.
i believe (but you can't quote me) that it was RAV or sythesizer-patel.
And no, telling me that someone somewhere posted them on this site is worthless. You have been found to be dishonest.
yes, just like everyone else that posts here.
You do not own the copy from Science, you cannot even quote directly to it, because you never read it from there.
go away bells, you dishonest freak.
 
copy/ paste much?
He's just pointed out the exact issue of your approach. And that is all you have to say about it?

At the very least, he can be sure that you will have read it, because you have thus far not read anything provided to you.

Still waiting for you to provide evidence that Science received letters about 'the issue'.
 
copy/ paste much?
It's too bad you don't have the intestinal fortitude to just admit when you're wrong leopold.

Do you subscribe to these "facts" as well?

  • "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." -- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
  • "Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and weigh only 1.5 tons." -- Popular Mechanics, 1949
  • "I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year." -- The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957.
  • "But what...is it good for?" -- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
  • "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.
  • "640K ought to be enough for anybody." -- Attributed to Bill Gates, 1981, but believed to be an urban legend.
  • "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." -- Western Union internal memo, 1876.
  • "The Americans have need of the telephone, but we do not. We have plenty of messenger boys." -- Sir William Preece, chief engineer of the British Post Office, 1876.
  • "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" -- David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.
  • "While theoretically and technically television may be feasible, commercially and financially it is an impossibility." -- Lee DeForest, inventor.
  • "The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C', the idea must be feasible." -- A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.)
  • "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" -- H. M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927.
  • "A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make." -- Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies.
  • "We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." -- Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.
  • "Radio has no future. Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. X-rays will prove to be a hoax." -- William Thomson, Lord Kelvin, British scientist, 1899.
  • "So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.'" -- Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and HP interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.
  • "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." -- Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M "Post-It" Notepads.
  • "It will be years -- not in my time -- before a woman will become Prime Minister." -- Margaret Thatcher, 1974.
  • "I see no good reasons why the views given in this volume should shock the religious sensibilities of anyone." -- Charles Darwin, The Origin Of Species, 1869.
  • "With over 50 foreign cars already on sale here, the Japanese auto industry isn't likely to carve out a big slice of the U.S. market." -- Business Week, August 2, 1968.
  • "You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all of your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You just have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight training." -- Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem by inventing Nautilus.
  • "Ours has been the first, and doubtless to be the last, to visit this profitless locality." -- Lt. Joseph Ives, after visiting the Grand Canyon in 1861.
  • "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy." -- Workers whom Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859.
  • "Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." -- Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.
  • "There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will." -- Albert Einstein, 1932.
  • "The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." -- Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project.
  • "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." -- Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre.
  • "There will never be a bigger plane built." -- A Boeing engineer, after the first flight of the 247, a twin engine plane that holds ten people.
  • Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." -- Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872.
  • "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." -- Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873.
All uttered by respected names in their fields - therefore they must always and forever be stamped in stone - immutable - right leopold?
 
it was posted in one of the threads about this topic, and i'm not too sure who posted it.
i believe (but you can't quote me) that it was RAV or sythesizer-patel.
Then link it. Stop stalling.

Or google search for the letters themselves. If you cannot find them, then I would suggest you stop referring to said letters. You have failed to substantiate any of your claims thus far, instead expecting others to do find the links for you.

yes, just like everyone else that posts here.
Everyone else in this thread have substantiated their claims. You are the only person who has not. You are also the one who keeps going on about how you read it on Science, but you did not. You read it on a creationist site. You cannot even respond to posts that directly quote the actual article on Science, just as you cannot even link it on JSTOR.

You misrepresented the article by relying on that one quote that you clearly and even admitted to quote mining on a creationist site. The article supports evolution. Which is why you refuse to answer James R comments that directly quote the article itself. He even provided you with a direct link to the article, Leopold.

go away bells, you dishonest freak.
Insults and name calling isn't going to work for you leopold. That is because I don't particularly care what your opinion of me is.

And I am still waiting for you to provide the links to those letters. Why don't you provide links to the letters in Science Magazine itself?
 
randwolf,
doesn't apply.
we are talking about a respected source and it's editors.
like i mentioned earlier, this COULD have been cleared up by one letter to science from ayala saying "hey guys, lewin misquoted me and i would like to have it corrected".

if lewin did indeed misquote ayala, you can bet he would have VOLUNTEERED to correct the issue.
all i'm asking is to see that issue of science where he does.
for that i'm labeled as, well read the thread.
 
we are talking about a respected source and it's editors.
Several of the quotes in his list came from respected sources.

But I guess since they never corrected them, there's no such thing as computers or airplanes. Otherwise they would have corrected their mistakes, right?
 
Moderator note:

leopold's dishonesty has gone far enough.

leopold does not respond to substantive objections raised against his silly claim that Ayala said that evolution does not occur and that small changes do not accumulate. Ayala says he was misquoted. He has given a clear explanation. It doesn't matter that leopold denies this.

leopold refuses to address the issue of whether his favorite article supports evolution or creationism.

leopold refuses to address the question of whether Ayala supports evolution or creationism.

leopold will not examine any information provided to him in support of evolution.

In short, leopold is a dishonest creationist hack.

Knowingly posting lies is a breach of our site rules. Persisting in lies after careful and comprehensive correction and explanation should not be tolerated here. Therefore, I have awarded 20 warning points to leopold.

If leopold continues to repeat the same claims, which have already been extensively canvassed and responded to, while failing to address any of the questions put to him or to examine the issue of evolution vs creationism in the wider context, then he will receive further warnings until he is banned from sciforums.

leopold will either address the points made to him in refutation of his silly claims, or he will cease posting on the matter, or he will receive warnings until he is banned.

This is the usual pattern with leopold. Nothing else gets through to him.
 
You are also the one who keeps going on about how you read it on Science, but you did not. You read it on a creationist site.
i have half a mind of reporting this post of yours bells.
the link i posted has been confirmed by randwolf, ask him where it came from.
now, shut up.
you dishonest freak.
 
Moderator note:

leopold's dishonesty has gone far enough.

leopold does not respond to substantive objections raised against his silly claim that Ayala said that evolution does not occur and that small changes do not accumulate.
where oh where did i EVER say that ayala said evolution doesn't occur?????????/
shut up, you dishonest freak.
go join bells
 
yes, it can be seen as that, seeing as it compromises every "retraction" ever made on the topic
What does that even mean leopold?

Just admit that you are clinging to Lewin's misinterpretation of Ayala's views like a drowning man to a straw. It won't save you - your (apparent) creationist fantasy that all of evolutionary theory was laid waste by a thirty something year old article in Science is just that - a fantasy. Small changes do accumulate - evolution is true. Yes, Virginia, your uncle is a monkey...

Too bad, so sad leopold...

PS - @ leopold - those "letters" you keep harping about do not help your case, they hurt it - they were from people questioning the truth of Lewin's claims - and Science printed them - what does that tell you?
 
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