Denial of Evolution VI.

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But the clay reveals the age of the fossil. How many layers of mud are there? Do a little checking on geology and you will find that every great event has been recorded in the form of compressed layers.
Fossils (from Classical Latin fossilis, literally "obtained by digging[1]") are the preserved remains or traces of animals (also known as zoolites), plants, and other organisms from the remote past. The totality of fossils, both discovered and undiscovered, and their placement in fossiliferous (fossil-containing) rock formations and sedimentary layers (strata) is known as the fossil record.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil
Once a layer is covered by another layer, no migration of fossils takes place and the age of the fossil may be determined by the layer in which it is found.

I believe a better analogy is shooting a BB into tree and when that tree is cut down a hundred years later the rings with the BB lodged reveal the age of the tree when the BB entered, within a couple of years accuracy at least.

When we speak of million year old fossils, do you believe a few hundred years makes a difference?
 
in fairness i must say that fads do not become global in nature and persist for centuries because there is "nothing to it".
also, faith and/or belief is a well documented phenomenon in science.
i'm not sure what this is all about but i feel it should be mentioned.

Yes, I agree. It's not a cosmic game of telephone carried on throughout the centuries ...built on hearsay and so on.
It has real legs. (I think so lol)

Appreciate very much you saying this. It would be neat to explore it more.
:eek:
 
I can say this safely here I think...
I always thought the story of Adam and Eve was more of a metaphor.
Not literal
Agreed. As a moral allegory it's pretty good (although I never did like the lesson that women were evil and inferior.)

As a believer, I have always wrestled with some things in the bible. Honestly...my faith life isn't about quoting scripture and memorizing passages.
For me it was! Four years of memorizing Bible passages, an hour and a half a day. I learned a lot about the Bible overall (although not what they wanted me to learn, I think.)

The bible is a good history book if you let it be and a moral guide if you let it be. There are objective truths that even non believers hold true. Even if they don't give God credit for that.

Definitely agree there although I think that the Bible is a better moral guide than a list of objective truths.

But the thing is...something intrinsic exists in us all to want the moral good of society. Why is that? Where do our intrinsic values come from?

The same place they come from in chimpanzees, rats, dolphins etc. Altruism, self sacrifice, compassion, a desire for justice, love - we've found these in a surprising number of other animals. We didn't expect that because we expected them to act, well, like animals. Turns out that all chimpanzees benefit if one of them is willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good, and so evolution tends to promote that behavior. It's one of the better things we inherited from our ancestors.
 
Pognophores etc are not plankton. Pognophores (in particular worms in the family Siboglinidae) are big tube worms that anchor in one place, often near a vent, and spend their whole lives there. Since their environment changes very slowly, we would expect them to change very slowly as well - and this is in fact what we see.

Right, I should have been more specific and said the others on your list do move with currents or on their own volition. And yes, bacteria ARE motile.
 
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I know all the arguments and yet this nagging suspicion creeps in. I think humans may have only been here on Earth for 2 to 3 thousand years. Call me crazy and let the chips fall where they may.
 
I know all the arguments and yet this nagging suspicion creeps in. I think humans may have only been here on Earth for 2 to 3 thousand years. Call me crazy and let the chips fall where they may.

The truly absurd thing about creationism is that there is more than one variety of it. In other words, there is more than one indisputable scriptural truth about the origins and/or antiquity of modern man. For example, on the one hand we have biblical creationism which emerges from a literal interpretation of biblical texts, and on the other hand we have vedic (or Hare Krishna) creationism, born of a literal interpretation of certain vedic texts. One is young earth creationism and the other is old earth creationism. One camp is supremely confident that humans have only been around for a few thousand years, and the other is supremely confident that they have been around (in anatomically modern form) for many millions if not billions of years. Both oppose evolution (on different fronts, and to varying degrees) on the grounds that it is in opposition to scripture. Both oppose each other on essentially the same grounds. And this is just one contrasting example among many.

So there is already a running joke that has been active for quite some time. And people like you are just adding to it. Meanwhile, atheists, agnostics and many other theists alike (which as we have seen now includes the catholic church) are instead paying attention to the far more compelling and infinitely more reliable body of evidence produced, very often independently, by the many different scientific disciplines that feed into evolutionary theory.

So yes, I'd say you are a little bit crazy. Not necessarily across the board, but certainly with respect to this.
 
I know all the arguments and yet this nagging suspicion creeps in. I think humans may have only been here on Earth for 2 to 3 thousand years. Call me crazy and let the chips fall where they may.

May I ask why you find that important? I ask in context of the creation and evolution of the universe and all that is in it, including the earth and the evolution of life as it exists today, including humans. Why 3 thousand years, why not 30 thousand, 300 thousand years, 3 million years? What is the point?
 
I know all the arguments and yet this nagging suspicion creeps in. I think humans may have only been here on Earth for 2 to 3 thousand years. Call me crazy and let the chips fall where they may.

"In denial" is the operative term.
 
whale-evolution-sm.jpg

Then you're stuck explaining where they all came from.



The problem with science is that you have to make do with the best evidence available. Given the facts presented so far, what other possible explanation do you have?

maiacetus-and-baby.jpg

Maiacetus had big teeth for catching fish, sturdy legs to support it on land and, most revealing of all, delivered babies head-first just like a land mammal. (Modern whales deliver tail first).

rodhocetus_science.jpg

Rodhocetus had a pelvic bone and four legs, articulated for perambulating (possibly a crawling walk) over short distances.

Okay. You're operating under the premise that macroevolution is true, therefore it stands to reason that the whale evolved, therefore these are good candidates.

Why is macroevolution true?

Given that the fossil record cannot account for the vast number of required changes for such a task, and that gene mutation is nearly always a detriment to the organism, or has not been shown to change one animal into a different one (fruit fly experiments for example).

jan.
 
Yes, I agree. It's not a cosmic game of telephone carried on throughout the centuries ...built on hearsay and so on.
It has real legs. (I think so lol)

Appreciate very much you saying this. It would be neat to explore it more.
:eek:
my post wasn't meant to persuade or dissuade you, it was made in the interest of fairness.
if you put in a little thought on this you will find that the christian god, an all powerful entity that loves humanity, simply doesn't exist.
look around you wegs, would god actually let the BS go on here on earth?
what? it's some kind of test?
seriouisly wegs, are you actually willing to believe that?
god lets his creations suffer horribly for some self centered ego massage.
YOU might want to kiss that ass but i don't. sorry.
confused?
don't feel bad, humanity has been grappling with this question for centuries.
 
When I read these debates, I often wonder why the divide? The two are not mutually exclusive.
Anyone who is reasonably informed and capable of rational thinking would have to agree. And most of us in that state of mind recognize that the line in the sand was drawn by folks who are convinced that the strict literal interpretation of the Bible (usually a particular English translation of Protestant canon) defines ultimate reality, regardless of all evidence to the contrary. Those same folks tend to be of the same mindset as the ones who prosecuted John Scopes for teaching evolution in 1925. That marks a particular way of drawing a line in the sand, one that, despite nearly a century of progress in discovering vast stores of natural evidence to support Darwin's core principles, continues to attack education through legal maneuvers, politics and propaganda. One of the sad consequences of this is that Christian fundamentalism tends to instill in people a desire to teach, and as a result a substantial number of American science teachers believe that God does suspend the laws of nature as it pleases Him. Around 12% of them deny not only biology and paleontology, but also geology, clinging to the Young Earth model proposed by Irish cleric James Ussher in the face of overwhelming physical evidence to the contrary.

I believe in God and that He created life *through* evolution.
Even orthodox congregations have been able to reconcile their religions with the evidence of science. On several occasions before the Reformation, clerics, scientists and philosophers affiliated with these churches have expressed a logic which does not evade the evidence, but which accepts it as part of a larger mystery, one that requires introspection and adjustment of one's personal interpretation of divine purpose and methods. Further, in periods of great respect for learning they have reasoned that scientific discovery is akin to divine revelation, and must be respected with the same truth as scripture: that anything to the contrary was a rejection of God's creation and therefore a form of denial displeasing to Him and contrary to their ends of holding God--and all of His creation--sacred. The Anabaptist movement, particularly as it spread throughout the US during westward expansion, distanced itself from orthodoxy and reinvented Christianity under the banner of strict literal interpretation of some particular translation of Protestant canon. It took root in the South and affiliated itself with slavery and Ku Klux Klan, then with eugenics, segregation, prohibition, anti-suffragism, the John Birch Society, the followers of Joe McCarthy and George Wallace, and from there rooted in the Republican Party first through inroads made by Billy Graham with Richard Nixon, then under the political activism of Jerry Falwell, establishing itself in various incarnations under Ronald Reagan, and thereafter, the Bushes, as the Religious Right, Moral Majority, the Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family and the Family Research Council, launching media campaigns in print and broadcast -- from the book God's Own Party to televangelism and AM talk radio to FOX News. Consequently their candidates continue to advocate overturning Roe v. Wade, they shut down stem cell research, brought strident claims against climate science, and have launched countless attacks against the teaching of evolution, in the courts, in the state legislatures, on the school boards and in the textbook selection committees. With this infrastructure in place, it was relatively easy for them to topple selected Democrats and liberals through fabricated sound bites and footage, as in the Swift Boat hoax, and similar attacks on others. The Shirley Sherrod hoax epitomizes the relative ease of character assassination through manipulation of sound bites.

This is the machinery behind the fundamentalist denial of evolution.

Many ppl who believe in God believe in evolution and that it is more than a "theory." Plenty of hard data to support the theory of evolution. To me, this brings a possible uniting at least on some fronts between people who believe in God and who don't. Between faith and science, even.

Unfortunately the orthodox churches have been weakened by scandal and the anti-papism of the well-oiled evangelists, otherwise those churches might stand taller in their opposition to the machine and its tactics. If that were to happen, we might see more of them advertising what you're saying here. At least several of them have made an effort to formally support your position.

I believe in evidence of evolution and I'm hard pressed to say that I have ever read an explanation that sounds um...convincing? When it comes to explaining the "missing link" ...the bridge between the theory of evolution and the book of Genesis. Doesn't mean I lose my faith in the book, but I wish there was something tangible to read that at least explains things.
Putting aside the first thought that comes to mind about the quest for a perfect link between apes and humans -- which I personally thought was knocked out of the park by the discovery of Australopithecus afarensis ("Lucy") and then clear into the next ballpark and over its fence with Ardipithecus ramidus ("Ardi") -- putting that aside, the astonishing discovery for any person who might read Genesis literally, is what Darwin called the "succession" of life forms seen in the fossil record. That is, the most primitive forms occur first, then there are innovation upon innovation upon these earliest forms, from which a tree of forms of similar types emerges, eon after eon, culminating in the modern era, with forms now extinct (such as Homo erectus) which provide evidence of some intermediate evolutionary stage preceding the emergence of the modern form.

Disregarding all connections to Darwin's theory -- if we look only at the successive modification of forms, arriving at the modern ones, we are left with the question: how else do you explain it? Certainly not by writing it off as a relic of the Flood. That leaves a gaping hole to be filled, one that Darwin filled quite elegantly, and with little more than hands-on experience and years of study during his remarkable life. If I were king for a day, I would pay incentives to everyone who reads and comprehends Origin of Species.
 
I know all the arguments and yet this nagging suspicion creeps in. I think humans may have only been here on Earth for 2 to 3 thousand years. Call me crazy and let the chips fall where they may.

Hmm. The earliest written documents we have are around 6000 years old. Who do you think wrote them?
 
Jan Ardena

You're operating under the premise that macroevolution is true, therefore it stands to reason that the whale evolved, therefore these are good candidates.

It's not a premise, it is an observed fact, there is a difference. Premises may or may not be true, facts are always true. Premises which are not facts are false premises, that does not describe evolution.

Why is macroevolution true?

Because evolution is an observed fact(macro and micro are subjective terms about the EXTENT of the evolution, not objective descriptions of it. Micro and Macro...they are both simply evolution). You are just a modified frog, you still have that frog's skeleton, every change between that frog and you was a micro change, but the accumulated micro changes produced macro changes. And what we have learned about DNA and genes nails down that fact, as the genes that formed the frog's skeleton are the same genes that formed yours(with minor differences/modifications). There is no more room for reasonable doubt about this, those who don't accept it are simply in denial, clinging to false, ancient answers to questions science has already definitively answered, mainly because of personal prejudice and willful ignorance. The Earth is not flat, it is not the center of our solar system or of our Universe, pi is not equal to 3, colored posts will not cause cattle to have spotted coats, rabbits don't chew their cud, the Earth is billion of years old, not thousands and your great, great...great grandfather swung from trees and flung his feces at those he was mad at.

Given that the fossil record cannot account for the vast number of required changes for such a task, and that gene mutation is nearly always a detriment to the organism,

The fossil record supports that populations of organisms change over time, that given long periods of time great changes can occur and that all life came from previous life, so I don't think you understand just how wrong your statement is, the fossil record is nothing BUT a record of huge changes in lifeforms over time. All mammals started as land dwelling animals, including seals, dolphins, porpoises, manatees, otters, beavers, whales and sea lions. Gene mutations are OFTEN detrimental(many cancers are gene mutations), SOMETIMES neutral(what difference does eye color make)and OCCASIONALLY helpful or advantageous, the detrimental ones are quickly eliminated from the gene pool(Natural Selection kills them), neutral ones may or may not persist and advantageous ones are actively promoted by survival to reproduce. Mutations occur daily in humans but it is only the mutations in the genes of the sexual gametes that can be passed on to the next generation, and the reproductive success(or lack thereof)of that offspring determines whether that gene modification will survive. Descent with modification/variation(by whatever means)with those modifications tested by survival to reproduce is the basis for evolutionary change. That's how man created dogs from wolves, they allowed the wolves who had traits they desired(docility, loyalty, intelligence)to breed and killed the others, that's ARTIFICIAL selection and we KNOW it works. The only difference between artificial and Natural selection is the criteria for Natural selection is simply survival to reproduce(those who fail die without descendants, removing those genes from the population). Nature throws out lots of offspring, each with it's own combination of traits, and then kills all but a few, those with the best fit to the environment having greater survival chances.

or has not been shown to change one animal into a different one (fruit fly experiment).

So you are just a modified frog-like amphibian? Or do you start out at a particular form of fish(the first of our line to sport a backbone). Evolution has been shown to have occurred, there can be no reasoned denial of that fact. You can remain willfully ignorant and unreasonably obstinate all you like, your ancestors still swung from trees(when they weren't swimming with their fellow fish). The reality is that there is only one lifeform on Earth, the DNA molecule(and it's subsidiaries, RNA, proteins, enzymes, etc.), everything else is an organic machine that DNA built to perpetuate itself. Changes in the DNA builds different machines, different machines are better/worse at reproducing the DNA, the DNA that builds better machines survives more often, DNA replication is never perfect, viruses can insert their own DNA and some gets stuck, radiation can break a bond, inactivating(or activating)ancient genes or creating new ones which can create new traits, all these and more provide variation in a population. Those in those populations who survive determine the traits a population has at that time, as the environment that determine who survives changes over time the traits of that population are different than the traits that same population had at an earlier time. Given a few million years you can go from an ape who stood up on his hind legs to rockets to the moon. Given a few 10s of millions of years you can go from a rat to the moon, given a few hundred million years you can go from a fish to the moon, half a billion gives you bacteria to the moon, given a few billion and you go from chemistry to the moon, prior to that we were star dust. This is the true history of life on Earth, we don't know all the details but the big picture is crystal clear.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Okay. You're operating under the premise that macroevolution is true, therefore it stands to reason that the whale evolved, therefore these are good candidates.

The opposite actually.

You have these fossils. It shows a progression of animals, from small land animal to large ocean dweller. In each stage of evolution you have clear links backwards to its previous ancestor, and clear links forward to what would become the modern whale. The environment it lived in showed a progression from land to fresh water to salt water.

So the question is - how did this happen? There are several alternatives:

1) Some supernatural agency (God, space aliens, whatever) did a very clever job of making a lot of fake fossils and burying them underground right where we would find them.
2) We are all living in a big computer simulation and those are just figments of the code (see 1 above.)
3) There are no fossils and everyone but you is in on the conspiracy to deceive you.
4) Some process caused a gradual change from a small land animal to a large ocean dweller.

Which is the most likely?

Given that the fossil record cannot account for the vast number of required changes for such a task

The fossil record can account for all the changes required. Which change do you think cannot be accounted for?

and that gene mutation is nearly always a detriment to the organism

True. One in a thousand organisms is "better" due to mutation.

or has not been shown to change one animal into a different one (fruit fly experiments for example).

Actually it has. Intentional mutations have turned six legged flies into eight legged flies (i.e. a spider.)
 
When I read these debates, I often wonder why the divide? The two are not mutually exclusive. I believe in God and that He created life *through* evolution. Many ppl who believe in God believe in evolution and that it is more than a "theory." Plenty of hard data to support the theory of evolution.

To me, this brings a possible uniting at least on some fronts between people who believe in God and who don't. Between faith and science, even. :)

Just my two cents.

Everybody believes in what is known as microevolution (i think we should always be aware of the distinctions), The break-off point is what is known as macro evolution.
Assuming you accept what is known as macroevolution, and the whole darwinian thing:

Why do you believe in God?
Who and/or what is the God that you believe in?

jan.
 
Everybody believes in what is known as microevolution (i think we should always be aware of the distinctions), The break-off point is what is known as macro evolution.
Is that where your brain breaks because it can't handle that micro and macro are the same process?
 
When I read these debates, I often wonder why the divide? The two are not mutually exclusive.
Because if evolution is true, there is nothing for a god to do. Why hold on to an unnecessary idea? Also, there is the fact of the timeline, why wait around for 3 billion years while other life forms dominated the planet if humans were the desired result?
 
Everybody believes in what is known as microevolution

Why do you think they are two different things?

Is microerosion (i.e. erosion of a ditch in your yard) different from macroerosion (i.e. the Grand Canyon?)

Is microlift (i.e. how a paper airplane flies) different from macrolift (i.e. how a 747 flies?)

Is microsound (i.e. a cricket) different from macrosound (i.e. a lot of cicadas?)
 
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