Denial of Evolution VI.

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i fail to understand why you, and others, keep saying these scientists did not say what they did or mean what they said.
There are tendencies on both sides of this argument to fail to clearly establish what this and the rest of science actually says and means--when fairly integrated into a coherent statement that does not overlook or simplify facts to the point of error. It requires clarity and accuracy to do this. Knowledge and understanding, some useful degree of skill and experience, adherence to valid logic, and a reverence for truth are all part of the overall challenge that completes for 'fair treatment'. This is obviously not a PhD seminar in evolutionary biology, so we need to avoid blending too much pop science with the real thing. Most of us would agree that clarity and accuracy are minimum prequisites to achieving that.

My suggestions on both sides of the arument are to try to be careful with the definitions of terms, and to rely more on the actual content of what the authorities say, and less on the paraphrasing what they said. We need to be careful to not overlook the many things they have published to further their own aims of accuracy and clarity. In Gould's case, that includes some refinements to his many statements over 30 years of extensive writing on this subject. He obviously didn't just keep repeating himself -- if his 1980 conference were that central to his theory, he would have just re-published it over and over, and it would be required reading to get a degree in science. But he didn't, and it isn't. He had much more to say - and there is reason for that - and those reasons haven't really been brought forward here. Similarly Ayala would not have retracted Lewin's characterizations of his 1980 remarks if he felt they were central to his position. Further, if Ayala fully agreed with Gould he would not have partly discredited Gould for, among other things, making apparently contradictory statements and/or retractions over the years along with his many expansions and refinements to what his original 1972 thesis said. In short, Gould's lifetime pursuit of explaining the fossil record was a work in progress. In neither began nor ended in 1980.

Here is Ayala describing Gould's own analysis of the question of 'gaps'. This is just a fragment of the many details needed for clarity and accuracy; the devil is in the details. Here I pick up on a discussion of uniformitarianism, which runs counter to the punctuated equilibria in the strata themselves, as follows:

Uniformitarianism interprets geological history as caused by more-or-less steady forces of nature. This theory was forcefully argued by James Hutton (1726 – 1797) and particularly by Charles Lyell (1797 – 1875), who had considerable influence on his younger contemporary, Charles Darwin. The French comparative anatomist and paleontologist, Georges Cuvier (1769 – 1832) rather argued that only the occurrence of catastrophic events could account for the sharp discontinuities observed in the geological record. It is now commonly accepted that the impact of a kilometer-wide meteor on the Yucatan peninsula caused, at least in part, the mass extinctions associated with the K-T event. However, extensive efforts have failed to discover similar extraterrestrial agencies as causes of other mass extinctions that occurred in the geological history of the Earth, some of which, such as at the transition between the Permian and Triassic periods, were even more extensive than the K-T event.

Franciso J Ayala
"The Structure of Evolutionary Theory: on Stephen Jay Gould’s Monumental Masterpiece"
Theology and Science, Vol. 3, No. 1, 2005​

One of my first arguments against the notion that there should only be "slow and steady" forces acting on nature, just as there "should" have been a uniformity of stratification, is that Uniformitarianism was merely a stage in understanding nature. It was superseded by newer and more complete evidence and better analysis. The thorn in the finger of modern universal Uniformitarianism, as it has been applied to Gradualism here, is the simple fact that extinction events represent any number of collapsing ecosystems for any number of causes that remain to be explained -- but which probably have little or nothing to do with the reasons that gradual differentiation (whether by genetic drift, adaptive radiation, or natural selection under slow onset of catastrophe) proceeds as the default process under more mild and "normal" conditions -- and the understanding and refinements to this that define science no differently than in any other field of discovery.

The same is true for stasis. Neither condition undermines the central tenets of Darwin's original theory. Stasis is one of the permutations for all of the ways things can happen, just as sometimes the laws of physics, thermodynamics, chemisty, genetics, system engineering or economics will encounter the "causes" and nature of any other kind of equilibrium. I think you will see the threads of this logic woven all throughout evolutionary biology, while gradualism remains intact. They are not entirely mutually exclusive, and modern textbooks will tend to explain this although some here may be arguing against what they learned in Paleozoic era of their lives, from books which have long since been updated. It's just that, since focusing on this has little to do with understanding natural selection in the popular experience (such as noting the replacement of niches once occupied by tigers with niches favorable to pigeons, ants and cockroaches) educators will carry the torch for best evidence, and the best science to explain it. That's a principle that's hard to refute.

But also, let's be fair about our own experiential bias. While we live in an age in which ecosystems are crashing rapidly, we may tend to think of them -- say over a lifetime - as gradual. It's merely a question of scale. And there is no universal yardstick to say that one particular crash is too fast or too slow to comport with some proprietary notion of how Nature might work. It is what it is, and we either try to reconcile it against our expectations and beliefs, or we don't. Fortunately we also live in an age replete with tools which simplify our quest for reconciliation. The real question here is: are we using them? That's probably more at the core of this discussion than anything else. Like any other branch of science it's a very complex body of knowledge. Aren't we oversimplifying it here?
 
Yes, there's no good evidence the Homo sapiens LCA (last common ancestor - c 200 ka?) was black-skinned. In fact, there's more variation in skin darkness among so-called black people than among other people, eg, KhoiSan are not black at all, but are relatively lightly-colored like other humans in dry open places such Australian aboriginals & Berbers. Ursids (bears) in the tropical forests are black, more northernly we have brown bears, grey grizzleys & (closely related to grizzleys) white polar bears. There's no biological reason to suppose that humans differed from this pattern: camouflage (ie, not to be seen unless you want to be seen) is still the most important evolutionary factor infuencing skin/fur color. The same holds for other hominoids: orangs in sunlit forests are reddish, gorillas & chimps on the forest floor are black, Scandinavians are pale but tan in summer, Brittish people (lived in sunlit forests) are reddish, Mediterranean people (oak forests) are darker, West-African (tropical forests) are much darker then East-African people (more open terrain) etc. This is the theory of Raymond Cowles. Tanning (sun) provides countershade (camouflage). When humans (sapiens) spread to different continents (along coasts & rivers, google "econiche Homo"), they acquired different colors. At the time of Out of Africa (c 70 ka), the climate might have been different than today, so we don't know what skin color this non-African LCA had.
 
and he complains when people talk down to him.
listen, RAV isn't stupid, he knows full well what he is doing.
he knows he's trying to draw me into a discussion that has gotten me banned in the past.
i'm not going there.
case closed.
 
since the thread title has been changed after i put 60 some posts in it i no longer wish to participate in it.
 
I started a thread in philosophy that develops the premise that evolution is closer to the study of history than predictive science. Evolution records the past using science to make the timeline accurate. But it can't be used to make predictions of the future with enough detail to be practical. We know the history of cancer and know it will continue to evolve, but we can't say into what and when so we can be one step ahead. Like history we know the past and can learn from the past, but the future is unknown other than more data will appear on the history time line.

My point is evolution is supported by science but as a practical entity is closer to history than applied science. Historians have the same predictive power in their field as does evolution, or lack thereof. They speak of different histories. My approach has always been how to you upgrade evolution so it goes from the equivalence of natural history, to the level of a predictive science?

Evolution is like a theory of gravity that says the ball will fall downward (it will evolve) but we can't tell when or where. We can blind fold you and randomly throw the ball and indeed it will fall down. But to be applied science we also need to know when and where it will land, so we can be there before the ball hits the ground. You can't do that with human history or the evolutionary theory of natural history. Newton's gravity will not only say down, but also when and where the ball will hit, thereby making it useful for creating history; applied science.
 
apparently evolution can't stand the light of open and honest inquiry.
it's the only reason i can see why the thread title was changed.
 
apparently evolution can't stand the light of open and honest inquiry.
it's the only reason i can see why the thread title was changed.

When you decide to be open and honest, let us know.
 
apparently evolution can't stand the light of open and honest inquiry.
it's the only reason i can see why the thread title was changed.

Because evolution is equivalent to a useful correlation for natural history. Since we learn from history, to change history will impact what we will learn. People like myself are not trying to revise history (that is a liberal projection since they do that), but rather seek practical science.

I think in terms of evolving the theory so it is more at par with applied science. Applied science has to be real, since you need to make stuff in hard reality, beyond intellectual imaginary stuff. Cancer evolves so why are we hand-cuffed? Because history can't predict the future. We need to wait for history to unfold; not proactive but reactionary theory.

If you look at Creationism, does it dump on Newtonian Mechanics? The answer is no because this is applied science and therefore beyond refutation; has pure rational power. Creation only goes after history style science.
 
apparently evolution can't stand the light of open and honest inquiry.
it's the only reason i can see why the thread title was changed.
Baloney.

The thread title got changed because I considered it to be a more appropriate title given the direction the thread has taken since you started participating in it.

You asked me to change it and I said no. There are several reasons for my saying no, perhaps the most important is this: I'm not the biology and genetics moderator. This means I do not have the power to change the thread title back.

So, you've PM'd the wrong person, asked them to do something they can not do (even if they wanted to), and then rage-quit the thread when they gave you the only answer they could.
:roflmao::facepalm:
 
verhaegen

Yes, there's no good evidence the Homo sapiens LCA (last common ancestor - c 200 ka?) was black-skinned.

There's good reasons to think so, the majority of humans in the parts of Africa man arose in are as black as black can be, and they are the purest of original human stock. 200,000 years ago is just a bottleneck(we were already humans), not the LCA between apes and humans(which was probably furred and lived about 8 million years ago).Those in Africa without very black skin are probably hybrids. There are good reasons for this, climate being one of these(note that almost every creature of the African plains has very short hair or none at all, another adaptation to the hot sun. Those without hair have darker skins or stay in water during the day). Without high levels of melanin humans are susceptible to many health problems, including skin cancers. If you walk around bald and naked in the tropical sun, you had better be black. People in Africa are black for much the same reason that the Nordic races are ghost white, the effects of the sun(in the Norse case the lack of vitamin D). Furred creatures do not have much melanin, their pelts keep the sun at bay.

Grumpy:cool:
 
. . . and then rage-quit the thread when they gave you the only answer they could.
actually i quit the thread because i didn't post in a "denial" thread nor was it my intention of doing so.

sub THAT.
yes, i know all about the edit.
 
. . . I considered it to be a more appropriate title given the direction the thread has taken since you started participating in it.
yes, i made it clear i wanted an open and candid discussion about this subject without the creationist, supernatural, and anti evolution horseshit.
are you able to find the post, or do you want me to find it for you?
 
There are tendencies on both sides of this argument to fail to clearly establish what this and the rest of science actually says and means--when fairly integrated into a coherent statement that does not overlook or simplify facts to the point of error.
forget it aqueous, it's apparent there are people here that do not want clarity, openness, and honesty regarding this subject.

i asked trippy in the PM he referred to what was being unreasonably denied and he had no answer.
 
forget it aqueous, it's apparent there are people here that do not want clarity, openness, and honesty regarding this subject.

Having followed this thread I find this statement astounding. You accuse everyone else of the very things you are guilty of. Are you really that blind?
 
then post the quotes where i unreasonably denied something.

You've denied the legitimacy of Francisco J. Ayala's statement about being misquoted, even though the paper he was presenting from at the time (which is a matter of record), backs him up.

And you've done this in at least three different threads, over a period of 2+ years.

This, all by itself, is enough to render you undeserving of the sort of respect that we would extend to someone with more intellectual integrity.

In other words, you are the problem here. And what's happened will keep happening for as long as you persist with your nonsense.
 
yes, i made it clear i wanted an open and candid discussion about this subject . . .

No you don't. If you did you would post an open, honest and candid description of your beliefs. Instead you just post references to a magazine article (which you claim isn't even the original article!) and post vague suggestions that the article contradicts basic principles of evolution. And every time someone questions you you said "read the article" (which, apparently, does not even exist in the form you claim it does.)

If you want an open, honest and candid discussion about evolution, post what you think about it. If not, keep trolling.
 
You've denied the legitimacy of Francisco J. Ayala's statement about being misquoted, even though the paper he was presenting from at the time (which is a matter of record), backs him up.

And you've done this in at least three different threads, over a period of 2+ years.

This, all by itself, is enough to render you undeserving of the sort of respect that we would extend to someone with more intellectual integrity.

In other words, you are the problem here. And what's happened will keep happening for as long as you persist with your nonsense.
as promised . . .
 
If you did you would post an open, honest and candid description of your beliefs.
spoken by a seeker of facts no doubt.
Instead you just post references to a magazine article (which you claim isn't even the original article!) and post vague suggestions that the article contradicts basic principles of evolution.
the "magazine" happens to be a well respected peer reviewed journal.
the "claim" can be verified if you would take the time to check it out.
If you want an open, honest and candid discussion about evolution, post what you think about it.
i have been, try to keep up.
 
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