Denial of evolution III

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Doesn't matter. The Theory of Evolution does not depend on the mutations being perfectly random or just relatively random from the point of view of the system which evolves. A life form has no relation to a haphazard cosmic ray that changes it's DNA.

TalkOrigins says it better than me:

So far as the local environment is concerned, the change is the result of a random process, a black box that isn't driven with reference to things going on at the level of the environment. It's not really random, of course, because it is the result of causal processes, but so far as natural selection is concerned, it may as well be.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/chance/chance.html


Is again a difference between our views,our scientifically robust.
Is random or is not random.I do not know what is more random or less random.
I think there is a difference between human sciences and science.
For these inaccuracies is accused is not a scientifically method .

And I repeat:
From Wiki,they removed definition which contained random and if you read the link I gave, I said that I should revise my position if the definition contains no notion of randomness.
But now you come with another definition which includes the notion of randomness.
And I say very seriously,for me no random of any kind.
If I accept random then I have to deny determinism.
I'm not sure you understand this logic but for me is clear.
For that I can not accept any random.

 
Then you don't understand what is meant by random. It's not mathematical randomness, it's just relatively random with respect to the system involved. In other words, things can be random, like lottery winners, but still deterministic (the lottery winner is chosen by pulling "random" balls out of a container but no one can predict which ball will be chosen).
 
No, that I I want to explain to you,but if you do not know math is hard.
Our lack of knowledge makes it random.
I think throwing the dice is not random.
This is determinism.And yet hard determinism.
Determinism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Determinism (specifically causal determinism) is the concept that events within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is, to some large degree, determined by prior states.
Hence "determinism" is the name of a broader philosophical view that conjectures that every type of event, including human cognition (behaviour, decision, and action) is causally determined by previous events. In philosophical arguments, the concept of determinism in the domain of human action is often contrasted with free will. The argument called indeterminism (otherwise "nondeterminism") negates causality as a factor and contradicts deterministic argument.
Determinists believe the universe is fully governed by causal laws resulting in only one possible state at any point in time. With numerous historical debates, many varieties and philosophical positions on the subject of determinism exist, most prominently the free will debates involving compatibilism and incompatibilism. Predeterminism proposes there is an unbroken chain of prior occurrences back to the origin of the universe.
Determinism should not be confused with Self-determination of human actions by reasons, motives, and desires, or with predestination, which specifically factors the existence of God into its tenets.

Varieties of determinism

Causal (or Nomological) determinism [1] generally assumes that every event has an antecedent cause in an infinite causal chain going back to Aristotle's Prime Mover or the beginning of the universe. Determinists believe that there is nothing uncaused or self-caused (causa sui). Research in quantum mechanics complicates this position further (see 'Arguments' section below). Such determinism is sometimes illustrated by the thought experiment of Laplace's demon.

Logical determinism or Determinateness is the notion that all propositions, whether about the past, present, or future, are either true or false. A belief in Causal Determinism along with this Logical Determinism together define what is called 'Hard Determinism' (discussed further below). Note that one can support Causal Determinism without necessarily supporting Logical Determinism (depending on one's views on the nature of time) and vice versa. The problem of free will is especially salient now with Logical Determinism: how can choices be free, given that propositions about the future already have a truth value in the present (i.e. it is already determined as either true or false)? This is referred to as the problem of future contingents.[1] Often synonymous with Logical Determinism are the ideas behind Spatio-temporal Determinism or Eternalism: the view of special relativity. J. J. C. Smart, a proponent of this view, uses the term "tenselessness" to describe the simultaneous existence of past, present, and future. In physics, the "block universe" of Hermann Minkowski and Albert Einstein assumes that time is simply a fourth dimension that already exists (like the three spatial dimensions). In other words, all the other parts of time are real, just like the city blocks up and down one's street, although we only ever perceive one part of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

If you want to see and a discussion about randomly.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=103404
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2598652#post2598652

I do not mind if we have different opinion.
For this is this forum.
If we think all the same then we do not need a forum.
Bothers me some feedbacks, assessments which are not made in good faith but that is not the case here.

 
Can you believe I've actually got a creationist trying to argue this point with me right now.

He told me speciation has to be seen to prove it. I said you can just look at evidence for it, not necessarily directly observing it happening in front of your eyes. Just like you look for evidence for gravity, or air. And I got this reply. "It is funny though that atheists get very scientific until it comes to this question of seeing something evolve and then they resort to these shallow arguments."

And I did actually say you can see bacteria evolve to deal with new antibiotics because they reproduce so quickly, but apparantly because bacteria is still bacteria, that's not evidence for evolution...

He also wrote in regards to replication:

"So, are you saying that when it comes to evolution that the ...requirement to observe it and replicate it is waved in favor of accepting it? "

My reply was this:

"I think you are just confused about the scientific method. When the scientific method talks about replicating something or reproducibility, it's talking about one experiment being reported in such a way that any ...other scientist will have enough information to replicate the experiment. In order for an experiment that is conducted that supports evolution to be valid scientifically, it must be reported with enough information to be reproducible. If another scientist does not agree with the result reported by the original scientist in a peer reviewed article, that scientist can now conduct the experiment themselves."

Am I missing something here with the scientific method? Where is it written that for science to have evidence about some natural phenomenon, scientists must be able to replicate that natural phenomenon. Does that mean that we have to make a sun in the labratory for science to have evidence that there is a sun? Am I missing something here?

Evolution is science. But:

No such thing as speciation without the seed factor. The directive program which allows speciation is not in the environment but the host seed, which acts akin to the chip in your mobile: trying doing without the seed or host transmission to prove your case!?

Evolution is science, and science is defining how already existing structures work - science is not vested in the cause of that construct, but is an after the fact faculty. Evolution comes from Genesis, not Darwin.

You will find the first categorising of life from groups introduced for the first time in Genesis, here listed in their most fundamental separation traits, namely by terrain habitat: immobile vegetation; water borne; air born; land born - with transit groups. Genesis allows conditional speciation [the text]. These are not from Darwin. The same with premises such as NS, only the reproduced is the selectee rather than the selector [wholly dependent on the seed data].

Natural selection is a myth because there is no such thing as NATURE. What we call nature is a placebo for the inexplicable [another old man with a white beard!]. There is no scientific alternative to creationism, nor any science in its negation. A creator for creation is 100% science; its negation is a reliance on magic, all dolled up with fancy terms.

That we cannot prove a creator does not alter its scientific correctness; the sound principle applies, as does cause and effect. What Darwin did was he observed the workings of Genesis, and shouted Eureka! No Creator! Exactly the reverse must apply from a scientific POV. In effect, Darwin says a car manual proves there is no car maker. Really now?! :rolleyes:
 
Another way to say this is just that the changes that get encoded in genes​


Gibberesh! This is talking about an already existing gene, complete with a program, that is subject to changes. The changes, or its ability to change, is not resultant from any other place than its allowance to be subject to change by virtue of the program in the original gene. Its called plausable pliability.

The genes allow our skin and eye color to change. This can be easily proven: a stone or pineapple will not change to flowers and phosperous - its genes do not allow this. No other factor impacts here. Otherwise, please prove your case without the seed factor, using just the environment. Hard to perform such a feat? I thought so! :D
 


IamJoseph,

You have forgotten the meaning of the word believe.
When I believe in something means that I'm not sure.
If you believe in God I have nothing against, but do not try to scientifically prove the existence in what you "believe" because you will fail.
 
No, that I I want to explain to you,but if you do not know math is hard.
Our lack of knowledge makes it random.
I think throwing the dice is not random.
This is determinism.And yet hard determinism.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

If you want to see and a discussion about randomly.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=103404
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2598652#post2598652

I do not mind if we have different opinion.
For this is this forum.
If we think all the same then we do not need a forum.
Bothers me some feedbacks, assessments which are not made in good faith but that is not the case here.


I agree that the mutations are deterministic. But, they are unpredictable in that they are indiscriminate. They don't prefer one gene or another. Whether this is mathematically random or simply like picking a lottery winner, the result is the same. Don't be confused by the word random. Another word or concept could suffice, such as haphazard. But, the TalkOrigins article does explain this very well.

Say the source of mutation was a cosmic ray. All sorts of factors are involved in where they ray hits, the position of the animal at a particular moment, the position of the Earth, the presence of an outcropping of lead ore, etc... All these things are deterministic but unrelated to the functioning of the genome itself.
 
Gibberesh! This is talking about an already existing gene, complete with a program, that is subject to changes. The changes, or its ability to change, is not resultant from any other place than its allowance to be subject to change by virtue of the program in the original gene. Its called plausable pliability.

The genes allow our skin and eye color to change. This can be easily proven: a stone or pineapple will not change to flowers and phosperous - its genes do not allow this. No other factor impacts here. Otherwise, please prove your case without the seed factor, using just the environment. Hard to perform such a feat? I thought so! :D

Then explain the mechanism that limits change. The only one is efficacy. If it works, it will be preserved, if not, not.
 

If we admit the existence of random in any form,chance or inpredictibil, I say that I can cancel through logic, the theory of determinism.
 
....?

Gibberesh! This is talking about an already existing gene, complete with a program, that is subject to changes. The changes, or its ability to change, is not resultant from any other place than its allowance to be subject to change by virtue of the program in the original gene. Its called plausable pliability.

Never heard of it - moreover, the term as defined is irrelevant. We require no new term for the word "mutation", Joseph.

The genes allow our skin and eye color to change.

Within ontogenetic boundaries, sure. What about this is novel or controversial?

This can be easily proven: a stone or pineapple will not change to flowers and phosperous - its genes do not allow this.

Rather, the nature of atomic and molecular identity will not allow this. The scenario you posit sounds like small atomic explosions. What "seed factor" does a stone possess?

No other factor impacts here. Otherwise, please prove your case without the seed factor, using just the environment. Hard to perform such a feat? I thought so! :D

You have been - repeatedly - asked to define the seed factor, and particularly outside some obscure Biblical reference. I am asking you again to define this nebulous term.
 


IamJoseph,

You have forgotten the meaning of the word believe.


'BELIEF": An inherent trait generic to all life, precedent, transcendent and independent of all beliefs.

Ultimately, we don't 'KNOW' anything, because our foundation source is unknown. All we can do is reason things from where we stand, without getting a peek behind the green door. We cannot KNOW there is or there is not a creator, but no one can say it is not a scientific premise. Here, belief is a non-issue for both believers and unbelievers.

All the science we possess says it is unscientific not to have a creator or a source which voluntarilly made the universe happen, with transcendent engineering and transcendent science and physics, which is becoming known as we go along observing.

Science inclines with creatorism. Its not the science which negates a creator - its the fact we cannot prove a creator in a vase or show an old man with a white beard. Knowing this difference is good science.
 
Then explain the mechanism that limits change.

I did/tried to. I showed that everything in the universe is basically made of small dots [nuclei?] with other dots spinning around in varying orbits and tragectories [electrons?]: this is a design or program. A stone has a different construct from a pineapple [varied electron spinage] - each allows conditional and limited changes, wholly dependent on the directive inherent within its core essence [program], loosely translated as 'seed', referred to in modern science as genes and dna.

It is not the external environment which impacts here, but the inner core seed: both the outer environment and the inner seed are in equilibrium, meaning they interact in sync, they identify and can align within specific parameters [non-random], an interaction being the antithesis of random.

This universe is finite - at one tme there was no environment, seed, program, etc. Why start after the fact and nominate it as the applicable factor? Its like saying the car manual makes the only factor for the existence of a car.

Deending how one sees 'CHANGE' - it is also a death/demise, as opposed an elevation/evolution. If change is seen as an adaptation, it makes more sense - but again this is only possible and critically limited to the internal directive program which allows or disallows that change. This means the dinosaurs did not die - they just became smaller lizards, etc. The term 'change' is very confused: do you accept that what is not subject to change is the only definition of an infinite entity, and that which is subject to change can only be finite?
 
Never heard of it - moreover, the term as defined is irrelevant. We require no new term for the word "mutation", Joseph.

We do require to assess what causes that mutation, and what each new sector of this action is common to the original seed. Repro is not merely a separation, it is an offspring derived from the host program. The latter drives the former.

Rather, the nature of atomic and molecular identity will not allow this. The scenario you posit sounds like small atomic explosions. What "seed factor" does a stone possess?

The atomic and molecular identity - IS the seed factor. You are merely delving deeper inside. A stone posses a varied atomic and molecular identity from that of a pineapple; each will allow changes subject to the directive program within it, determined by whatever our state of art science can fathom, e.g. atomic and molecular identity. Its still inside; its still the seed factor - an appropriate term for all generations.


You have been - repeatedly - asked to define the seed factor, and particularly outside some obscure Biblical reference. I am asking you again to define this nebulous term.

What is not understood is, the term seed may be an ancient and mysterious word, loosely, but intelligently, translated as seed [it predates modern science terminology]. It refers to the core, deep essence of a construct which determines that entity. Try going back in your time machine 3000 years and explain your atomic and molecular identity - what word would you use without abusing the people of that time, yet still make it applicable in a forum debate today? I think you have either missed the point or bypassed it. Or maybe you imagine my science is 3000 years old compred with yours? :rolleyes:
 
No such thing as speciation without the seed factor.

"Seed factor" is a term that is only used by you. It is unscientific nonsense.

The directive program which allows speciation is not in the environment but the host seed...

There's no program for speciation.

Evolution comes from Genesis, not Darwin.

This was previously proven wrong to you. Did you forget?

You will find the first categorising of life from groups introduced for the first time in Genesis, here listed in their most fundamental separation traits, namely by terrain habitat: immobile vegetation; water borne; air born; land born - with transit groups.

These categories are taxonomically meaningless, as I previously explained to you.

Natural selection is a myth because there is no such thing as NATURE.

Nature is out your window. Go look at it. Open your eyes. It isn't in your bible.

In effect, Darwin says a car manual proves there is no car maker. Really now?! :rolleyes:

Stupid straw man. Darwin didn't even know about cars. They weren't invented.

I did/tried to. I showed that everything in the universe is basically made of small dots [nuclei?] with other dots spinning around in varying orbits and tragectories [electrons?]: this is a design or program.

No. A program involves information and instructions. Atoms contain no instructions.

It is not the external environment which impacts here, but the inner core seed: both the outer environment and the inner seed are in equilibrium, meaning they interact in sync, they identify and can align within specific parameters [non-random], an interaction being the antithesis of random.

Meaningless religious gibberish.

This universe is finite - at one tme there was no environment, seed, program, etc.

You still don't know the difference between space and time, do you?

This means the dinosaurs did not die - they just became smaller lizards, etc.

Dinosaurs were warm-blooded. They did not become lizards.

The atomic and molecular identity - IS the seed factor.

So "seed factor" is your name for "atom", is it? Why do you need a new name for something that already has a name?
 

There determinism theory and everything that involves this concept.

For me, no theory can deny determinism.Determinism deny random.
So when a theory use random notion there is serious doubt on it.
If not, it means that determinism theory spades.


I'll ignore IamJosephs desperate gibberings for a while and focus on another "uneducatable" person...

Emil... Determinism works on the macro scale.
But if you research your Quantum Mechanics, you'll find a severe break down of determinism.

On the topic of Evolution, deterministic points are sufficient, but not necessarily accurate.
In this topic, 'random' simply means, "Factors not described."
Cosmic rays, mistakes during copy or coding on the genetic level and even alleles and Environmental pressures that promote mutation.

There are a great many factors that can cause mutation, including the coding in our genes that hastens the process.
This can be described sufficiently with a deterministic take, but if you want to get more precision, you need to examine factors described in Quantum Mechanics and that... is a bitch.

Clearly, you know very little on determinism and on Quantum Mechanics.
 
I am broadly with Shadow1.
Just because a thing is, generally speaking, true does not make it science.
Science = plural and general; replicable in regard to variables under scrutiny. Validated by statistics.
History = singular and particular; unique to its circumstances. Validated by appeal to what is reasonable, like a prosecution case in the justice system.

Evolution is best regarded as an historical principle -- like "all power tends to corrupt" or dialectical materialism. Wherever evolution is observed, it is particular to its own environment and its own set of circumstances. That is what, in the context of humans, we call history, or analyse as a case history.

Is your viewpoint related to your screenname? Are you one of those "Aquatic ape" hypothesis promotors? That may explain why you posted what you did.

In the meantime,

Oohh ... ohhh ... and I will get kicks my ass.
Or my post will be deleted or moved to "denial of evolution".
The Theory of Evolution has become a religion where god is Time.
Any attempt to talk critically about evolution is considered blasphemy and treated as such.
Because of this the theory of evolution could not be improved.
As you can enhance something, first you must admit that is not perfect, has gaps that need improvement.
I am pleased to believe I helped myself to eliminate the word "random" in the definition of evolution in Wiki.
Major concern for them, is finding and more "relics" (fossils).
But this is not the problem.
These are conclusions that come from finding these fossils.And they say with absolute conviction.
What conclusion can we draw from Mendelleev's periodic table?
I do not believe in creationism so have not "suporters"among creationists but do not "believe" in evolutionism so I have no supporters in this camp.
But no matter.I am accustomed to solitude.

As ignorant as you are, what business do you have making contributions to Wikipedia?
 
Accursed manipulative scientists and their damned fossils!

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/oec/images/tree.jpg

http://en.wikivisual.com/images/0/0e/MyosinUnrootedTree.jpg

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/05/090519-missing-link-found.html

http://palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk/dinosaur/FIG2.jpg

I just dunno what to think about all this overwhelming evidence...
captcpsnbw07050508012205photo00photodefault-372x494.jpg
 
Would love to see someone use that argument in court. 1000 eye witnesses for him\her shooting 30 people, covered in blood, gun in the hand balistically matched to every bullet and s\he stands up in court and says "your honor, i cant be guilty because to be proved to have done something it must be replicable, as the people are dead and cant come back to life the situation cant be replicated and there for it cant be proven i did it" :p
 
"Seed factor" is a term that is only used by you. It is unscientific nonsense.

Unscientific nonsense: one who cannot see how a seed from a nominated host duality is the factor responsible for repro. Please give a better word understood by ancient and present generations. If you have trouble, try banging head on your desk with force.

There's no program for speciation.

LOL! You also denied the word seed appeared in Genesis, I showed you it was not only included in the text but pivotally contexted in the reproduction process of life forms - which planet are you from? The text says a land based life form group [kind; specie] shall follow its own land based group [the text]. That, FYI, is speciation, and the first recording of it. What did you think it means!?





This was previously proven wrong to you. Did you forget?

It was denied, not proven. Please tell us the first listing of life form group divisions?

These categories are taxonomically meaningless, as I previously explained to you.

Its not meaningless but exactly what is says. There is more than one way to categorise life form group divisions than skeletal and dna. The first threshold is by terrain habitat. One cannot expect words like dna in an ancient text [ugh!], but the principle is scientific and not meaningless. The first vew of these divisions is what we observe: some life forms only live in the ocean! Their dna imprints are merely later, more in-depth observances, and the latter cannot be arrived at without the former coming first. Its not meaningless but one of the greatest statements in science: you won't find anything of equivaence any place else.

Nature is out your window. Go look at it. Open your eyes. It isn't in your bible.

I looked. No old man with a white beard. How many colors does nature come in and did it exist on day one of this planet? Does nature exist on Mars? FYI, nature is just a placebo for the inexplicable and not to be taken literally. A few generations back, nature meant act of God, or random and involuntary occurences. The placebo is discarded when we find out an underlying cause, like gravity replacing nature.

Stupid straw man. Darwin didn't even know about cars. They weren't invented.

He must have known of the principle: observing how a car works does not negate the car maker - it affirms it. This is all that happened with Darwin, and it became a big splash after he died for those who were disillussioned with their beliefs. But it is unscientific to conclude a complexity occurs without a complex program behind it; or that a programmer does not apply. That is not science!

No. A program involves information and instructions. Atoms contain no instructions.

Yes, the variables of electronic orbits is what makes one atom group different from another, and that constitutes both its inherent information and instruction. What did you think makes one atom [of gas] varied from another [of iron] - the environment?

Meaningless religious gibberish.

Nothing to do with religion. You believe the environment makes your eye an eye, I see this resultant from data contained in the seed transmitted by the host to the offspring. Both are non-religious premises, only mine is right. It is easily proven: lets see an eye where there is no transmission from the host! If the environment predated life, then how come there were no eyes around?

You still don't know the difference between space and time, do you?

How did you work that out - you have access to the KGB?

Dinosaurs were warm-blooded. They did not become lizards.

That is not a score with me. I made only a cursory example of large animals adapting to smaller ones.


So "seed factor" is your name for "atom", is it? Why do you need a new name for something that already has a name?

I don't need a new name. What I said was, the word seed was an approproate ancient term for the underlying source of an entity. It denotes essence, core, chip. Try to come up wth a better one! :D
 
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