Hitler was not a Christian. Read even one biography of the man and you would know that he despised Christians. Learn something about History before you make such assertions. Nothing about the Nazi cult was even remotely Christian. It is very well known among actual historians of the Second World War that they actually revived ancient, Teutonic religious practices and glorified ancient, pre-christian germanic peoples.
It seems very clear that those two sites you posted are actually clearly biased, anti-christian lovefests. Either that, or they naively think that the rhetoric in Hitler's speeches was not designed to appeal to the German people, the vast majority of whom were, not surprisingly, Christians.
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"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
"....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief."
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
-Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf.
"....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief."
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
-Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf.
SkinWalker said:
It is clear that Hitler admired Christianity because of it's strength, but that does not mean he was himself a Christian. None of the above quotes says implicitly that he was a Christian, only that he admired the power of the religion and that he used it's symbolism to get his point accross. This is just a vain attempt to demonize Christianity with someone as infamous as Hitler. Nice try, but if you go to any serious historian, they will tell you that you are flat out wrong.
Clearly Hitler accepted that the christian god existed. That's the definition of christianity (though I'm sure members of its individual cults will quibble over what it means to be a true xian).
Moreover, its also clear that these beliefs shaped his life and affected his worldview. The 2nd quote above is a near-perfect echo of the thoughts of Martin Luther. In addition, I've in no way "demonized christianity" or attempted to. I've only shown that the typical rant that Hitler was an atheist and therefore atheism is evil is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
For any historian to deny Hitler's christianity, demonstrates their incompetence.
Indeed, Hitler's intolerance and subsequent attrocities against the Jewish people was consistent with biblical doctrine. I didn't finish one of the quotes above, but allow me to flesh out its context a bit more:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." [Hitler: Mein Kampf]
Perhaps he drew from Colossians 3:17 where it reads: "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."
Perhaps it was Deuteronomy 2:34 where he was inspired: "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."
Certainly Samuel was full of examples Hitler could have chosen: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
Maybe Hitler saw himself as a modern-day Joshua: "...Joshua smote him and his people until he had left him none remaining." (10:33)
Throughout his reign, Hitler was involved with Christianity. In two books, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell, and Hitler, the War, and the Pope, by Ronald J. Rychlak, you'll see images like this one and read historical accounts taken from primary sources of Hitler's christianity. The two texts contradict each other with regard to the role of Pius XII, but the one thing that seems to be common between them is Hitler's belief in the Christian god.
<img src="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/hitler&catholic_fan.jpg">
Moreover, its also clear that these beliefs shaped his life and affected his worldview. The 2nd quote above is a near-perfect echo of the thoughts of Martin Luther. In addition, I've in no way "demonized christianity" or attempted to. I've only shown that the typical rant that Hitler was an atheist and therefore atheism is evil is pure, unadulterated bullshit.
For any historian to deny Hitler's christianity, demonstrates their incompetence.
Indeed, Hitler's intolerance and subsequent attrocities against the Jewish people was consistent with biblical doctrine. I didn't finish one of the quotes above, but allow me to flesh out its context a bit more:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." [Hitler: Mein Kampf]
Perhaps he drew from Colossians 3:17 where it reads: "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."
Perhaps it was Deuteronomy 2:34 where he was inspired: "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."
Certainly Samuel was full of examples Hitler could have chosen: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
Maybe Hitler saw himself as a modern-day Joshua: "...Joshua smote him and his people until he had left him none remaining." (10:33)
Throughout his reign, Hitler was involved with Christianity. In two books, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell, and Hitler, the War, and the Pope, by Ronald J. Rychlak, you'll see images like this one and read historical accounts taken from primary sources of Hitler's christianity. The two texts contradict each other with regard to the role of Pius XII, but the one thing that seems to be common between them is Hitler's belief in the Christian god.
<img src="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/hitler&catholic_fan.jpg">
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Jaster Mereel said:
if hitler wasn't christian, why did he expend huge amounts of time and money trying to find christian artifacts like the holy grail, the ark of the covenant, the spear of destiny...etc. if he wasn't christian, don't you think he would have not believed any of these things even existed to be found? probably. he did however, despite your claims that he wasn't christian - search for all of these things throughout the war in the hopes that he would find an object that would give him the supernatural strength required to defeat his enemies. strange for a guy who just uses christian rhetoric.
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baumgarten said:
well, first of all, do you ever watch the news? when islamic terrorists took responsibility for bombing the world trade center in 93 they said that they had done it because America is the chief financial and military supporter of Israel and that they believe Israel to be an illegal settlement on their (muslim) land. this conflict has existed for literally centuries and caused limitless warfare. had the terrorists not persisted in their efforts to punish america for supporting Jews in their war agains Muslims, we would not have had a 9/11. if we had not had 9/11 we would not be at war in either afghanistan or iraq at this point in time. how's that sound to you for a source. in addition to that, try reading any book that contains a history of events in the middle east from 1967 to the present day.
look, i didn't say that other irrational ideologies were acceptable. but in my country, the biggest peddler of irrational ideology is the Christian church. its that simple, i don't think that muslims, buddhists, hindus, jews, or satanists are anymore logical or correct in their assertions about reality and proper lifestyle choice. however, none of those groups historically have had as much of an effect on the culture and political climate of the country where i live.
i don't single out anyone either. i simply attempt to rebutt assertions made by christians that their beliefs should play a role in decisions involving laws or policies that effect people of many different faiths.
that was what i was saying. i didn't compare the catholics to the nazis. i didn't say the nazi's shouldn't have apologized. i didn't even say that nazis weren't evil and that the church was.
i'm pretty sure all of us here know the difference between the nazis and the modern day people of germany.
most reasonable people today believe that the actions taken by the nazi's qualify them as evil and anathema to civilized society. the reason for this is because they devalued human life, killed with impunity, would not tolerate any kind of diversity, and persecuted others based soleley on the fact of their different religious belief. well, the catholic church historically has done some of these same things, often resulting in far more gruesome excess than anything hitler could have come up with in a wet dream. how come no one finds this organization antithetical to civilized society? or alternatively, how come we couldn't see any good in the nazis if we can see it in the church? makes you wonder huh?
PS: you still have people claiming to be catholics here and there commiting atrocities and murder because they fear different ideas, what makes them different from neo-nazis? what makes their parental ethos any less repulsive?
Because he believed in the occult value of those artifiacts - like Boromir desired the One Ring. It's this desire (and in Boromir's case, his repentance) that showed his true character. The problem with a fanatic is that they can believe in the reality and usefulness of religion without actually adhering to any of its tenets. They may even (and usually do) believe that they act according to God's will. Did you think the false prophets and Christs that Jesus warned against would pretend to be atheists? They would come from inside the church!charles cure said:
What is even stranger than someone who uses Christian rhetoric yet acts like a devil, is someone who believes that such a person still passes for a good example of Christianity. Don't you believe Matt. 7:15-23? I would question the Christianity of someone who makes a show of his Christianity in public, while he says in private:
"I begin to lose all respect for humanity when I think that some people on our side, ministers or generals, are capable of believing that we cannot triumph without the blessing of the Church. Such a notion is excusable in little children who have learned nothing else."
"Kerrl, with the noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself."
"Christianity is the worst of the regressions that mankind can ever have undergone, and it's the Jew who, thanks to this diabolic invention, has thrown him back 15 centuries. The only thing that would be still worse would be victory for the Jew through Bolshevism. If Bolshevism triumphed, mankind would lose the gift of laughter and joy. It would become merely a shapeless mass, doomed to grayness and despair." -- Hitler's Table Talk, as recorded by Martin Bormann between July 1941 and June 1942.
(Note: I am aware that some question the accuracy of the translated Table Talk (see the Wikipedia entry), and of the fact that Hitler never questioned his own interpretation of Christianity. He was definitely religious, and a Christian facade allowed him to rally "Christian" Germany (he tried to unite Catholics and Protestants under his cause) and to villify the Jews (he believed Jesus started the war against Jews, and wasn't actually a Jew). He seemed to regard ideological Christianity as a useful and necessary weakness of the German people, while practical Christianity - what he called "the Christianity of the catacombs" - would lead to their downfall. "I have not come into this world to make men better, but to make use of their weaknesses.")"Kerrl, with the noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself."
"Christianity is the worst of the regressions that mankind can ever have undergone, and it's the Jew who, thanks to this diabolic invention, has thrown him back 15 centuries. The only thing that would be still worse would be victory for the Jew through Bolshevism. If Bolshevism triumphed, mankind would lose the gift of laughter and joy. It would become merely a shapeless mass, doomed to grayness and despair." -- Hitler's Table Talk, as recorded by Martin Bormann between July 1941 and June 1942.
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PS. Read Dietrich Bonhoeffer's biography. You are propping up the Catholic church to support your argument against Christianity, even though you're as able as any Christian to recognize perversion from the real thing. Why can't you let God judge everyone involved, including Hitler, and concern yourself with what Christ actually taught, and with those who actually put it into practice? Are you aware of the role the Catholic church played in Poland, against Hitler's interests? He killed almost a million Catholics in Poland, showing that his political agenda was far more important than religious affiliation.
"With the possible exception of Malta, Poland is still the most overtly Catholic country in Europe.
Two parties espousing traditional Catholic values share power in Poland and many Poles are regular church-goers.
That is partly because the Church was the only force which kept Polish national identity alive in the 19th Century, after foreign powers divided up the country and Poland ceased to exist, our correspondent says. The Church played a similar role under Soviet domination in the second half of the 20th Century." -- BBC News, Poles applaud and sing for Pope
Two parties espousing traditional Catholic values share power in Poland and many Poles are regular church-goers.
That is partly because the Church was the only force which kept Polish national identity alive in the 19th Century, after foreign powers divided up the country and Poland ceased to exist, our correspondent says. The Church played a similar role under Soviet domination in the second half of the 20th Century." -- BBC News, Poles applaud and sing for Pope
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Jenyar said:
first of all, we are talking about WWII not the lord of the rings. not to mention that Boromir desired the ring to enrich himself by using its power to defeat evil. he had to believe that the ring had power to begin with in order for that to be the case. the same with hitler. someone who does not believe that christianity is relevant will not believe in the power of its artifacts, either real or symbolic. however, the evidence points to hitler having believed that the artifacts could actually give him some type of supernatural power. in addition to that, its common sense. hitler was a man that held absolute power and controlled people with fear. if he had wanted say, the holy grail in order to gain some symbolic power, all he would have had to do is manufacture one and force some people to swear to its authenticity. thats a lot less of a waste in terms of time and money, and saves the embarrassment of not having found it at all. hitler wouldn't probably have even opened himself up to the possibility of this kind of failure unless he thought the objects had intrinsic power for him. your argument falls flat as far as i am concerned.
and the problem with the fanatic is not of the fanatics own creation. the fact that a zealot can bend or abuse the tenets of christianity to serve his own ends has its root cause in the fact that authoritative christian texts can be read to justify any end whatsoever. the fanatics merely have a different interpretation of words already written in the bible, and their interpretation is no less valid than that of a moderate christian, their actions are just more abhorrent. fanaticism is a direct consequence of adherance to an unclear and irrational ideology that can be interpreted in a host of different ways, not the other way around.
well, in regards to the above qoute, i read that to mean that the person saying it is a protestant. nothing more. many people believe that they are christians, yet recognize that god, and not the church would be the ultimate authority. so it is easy to see why someone would think that it is foolish to require the blessing of PEOPLE instead of god in order to triumph. that quote actually seems to work against your case as much as it does for it.
how does that imply that he isn't christian? i mean why try to create a synthesis of national socialism and christianity if you find no worth in one of them?
once again i see someone denouncing an organization but not a god. if hitler was like any other fanatic, i'm sure he thought of himself as a "true" christian and was duly disgusted with the church and its failure to keep people on a true path. this seems to be more of a denunciation of jews and communism than anything else.
right, so the point of all of this is that you don't think hitler was christian because he's not what you think of when you think of christians. he didn't see christian doctrine in the same way that you do, so therefore his interpretation is not correct, thus making him not "really" christian. well, thats the problem with christianity in a nutshell. every sect thinks their sect ar ethe only "true" or "real" christians, because their interpretation of the bible is the right one. meanwhile if you were objective in the least about the issue, you would see that anyone who believes in the christian god, jesus, and follows ANY interpretation of the bible (even if it is their own) is in fact, a christian. the fact that he was able to use christian rhetoric and biblical scripture to support his persecution and genocide is proof of how easily a person can manipulate the words of the bible to justify any act. that is what is so dangerous about it.
The facts are: Hitler believed in the Christian god; and believed what he was doing was the work of god. This makes Hitler Christian (not Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim).
So the tired and worn argument that religious nutters keep tossing about that "since Hitler was atheist, atheists are bad" is not only an intellectual problem, but a pure deception on the part of Christians that use this argument. Both problems aren't in short supply among Christians, and I'm sure some Christians will continue to argue the Hitler/atheist point after this just to prove their lack of intellectual ability and the deceptions they're willing to stoop to.
So the tired and worn argument that religious nutters keep tossing about that "since Hitler was atheist, atheists are bad" is not only an intellectual problem, but a pure deception on the part of Christians that use this argument. Both problems aren't in short supply among Christians, and I'm sure some Christians will continue to argue the Hitler/atheist point after this just to prove their lack of intellectual ability and the deceptions they're willing to stoop to.
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SkinWalker said:
This is not a fact at all. I'm appalled at how frequently you spread ignorance as truth. Have you read Mein Kampf? I have.
Hitler was at best a mystic, but he was not a religious man. His views on spirituality were strongly influenced by Norse mythology as expressed in the operas of Richard Wagner. But above all, Hitler considered mythology important only because it helped strengthen the German's people sense of racial pride.
Hitler was certainly not atheist, but neither was he a Christian. If you fight one lie with another, in the end you may win, but you would still be achieving nothing.
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Confutatis said:
i think skinwalker quoted some of mein kampf that points to hitler's christianity. all the evidence of hitler's life points to his having been christian. what you are saying is that his christianity was an elaborate facade or calculated lie in order to manipulate the people of germany into doing his bidding. well if that makes hitler not christian, then i've got a list of popes who weren't christian either.
Wagner wrote an opera about the holy grail too, remember?
Confutatis said:
I'm appalled at how frequently you say shit that you don't back up. There's a thread in the Parapsychology section where I asked you some very pointed questions. All you did was bitch and cry about how I gave you a non-existant "barrage" of insults.
Telling us you "read" Mein Kampf and understand it better than the rest of us who have doesn't refute a thing I say. Perhaps I'm wrong about Hitler's Christianity, but you haven't demonstrated it.
Here is some more evidence for consideration:
Was Hilter a Christian?
Hitler was neither an atheist nor a Christian. However, he was a politician.
Was Hilter a Christian?
Hitler was neither an atheist nor a Christian. However, he was a politician.
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I don't think SkinWalker read Mein Kampf. At least he didn't say he did.charles cure said:
I'm not talking about "evidence", I'm reporting what I heard from the horse's mouth. Nowhere in Mein Kampf, or in his public pronouncements, has Hitler made it clear that he cared about Christianity. Christianity was, in fact, too un-German for him. That is why he preferred Norse mythology, which for him seemed much more like a German religion.
He didn't appeal to Christianity for that, he appealed to Norse mythology. He may have said something about Jews being responsible for Christ's death; he believed a leader should say whatever it had to be said to get people to do what he wanted them to do. He had a Minister of Propaganda! And he explains why in Mein Kampf.
Hitler was not a pope. He didn't even go to church.
Wagner was a Christian.
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Confutatis said:
oh you got it from the horse's mouth huh, you talked with hitler? if you think that most of what hitler said amounted to propoganda, what makes you think mein kampf can be trusted as a source of valid information?
youre kidding - hitler wasn't pope? i never knew. the point i was making is that some popes did exactly the same kind of thing that hitler did, and they are still considered christians. wake up.
yeah i know. i was pointing out that he wrote operas about more than just norse mythology and that hitler was likely to have been influenced by those works as well.
<img src="http://www.bloomington.in.us/~lgthscac/churchandstate.jpg">confused said:
I've read it. Do you want to measure dicks next? Evidence for Hitler's Christian beliefs transcend the single book Mein Kampf. There is ample evidence, already sourced above, that indicates he had a belief in the Christian god. Whether he believed in other mythology is irrelevant, since if you're willing to believe in one bit of nonsense, surely there's much you may be willing to buy into.
Belief in the christian god is all that is necessary to be considered "christian." By the way, the church above, that Hitler is walking out of, is in Wilhelmshaven.
And if the quote in this photo is accurate (found in a google image search, so I've not looked up the source cited), then it further adds to the fact that Hitler was Christian.
http://www.remnantofgod.org/NaziRCC/hitlerrcc2.bmp
But then, as I prophesied, the Christian religious nutters will continue to drop in and offer deception and anti-intellectual rants without direct sources. Perhaps confutatis would care to directly source by which passages of which chapters in Mein Kampf demonstrate Hitler did not accept Christianity!
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SkinWalker said:
What's with those people? Don't they have manners?