Bells
Staff member
They are two distinct things that feed off each other. One stems from the other. One feeds the other. Do you understand what I mean now?Yes. I know a woman who is sexist towards men.
As I said, sexism and mysogyny are two distinct things.
See other distinctions below.
Once again, one feeds the other.That's the basis of my point. You can't simply beg the question (i.e. implying the answer in the question).
No, disrespect is not hate. Many people have little respect for many other people but it does not equate to hate. I have little respect for, say, lawyers, but I do not hate them.
The actions that stem from sexist attitudes and opinions often lead to and encourage misogyny. If you disrespect someone enough to not give them a job or you discriminate against them because they are female, how can that not be hateful, in your opinion? If someone discriminated against you, went out of their way to not promote you, because you are male, you would not view that as being the act of a misandrist? Misogyny, like misandry, stems from sexist attitudes.
Do you happen to like or not mind the people you are deliberately disrespecting because of their sex?You are simply asking me again if disrespect and hate are synonymous.
"Misogyny" often surfaces in political struggles over women's role, and you can tell because the control of women becomes personalised, intrusive and often sexualised. Misogyny has the amygdala involved – the part of the brain involved in processing emotional responses – there is contempt and violence in it. A public figure who tolerates the systemic under-prosecuting of rape is guilty of serious and unforgivable sexism; making rape jokes or explaining away the damage of rape in public as Congressman Todd Akin did recently in the US, or legislating, as over a dozen US states are now doing, transvaginal probes that are medically unnecessary, simply to sexually punish women for choosing abortion – well, that is misogyny.
I want you to consider this statement. Do you think misogyny can exist on its own? Or do you think that misogyny is like an extension of sexism? For example, do you think actively not prosecuting a rape case, even though the rapist confessed, and in doing so, expressing disrespect for the victim because she may have had an abortion in the past, and refusing to prosecute, is misogyny or sexism? Or is it both? I speak of course of an actual case, where a young woman was raped by her ex-boyfriend, who confessed to the crime and the prosecutor at the time refused to prosecute because he was under the belief that the victim had had an abortion once and he blamed her for her rape. His sexism fed his misogyny. His misogyny would not exist if not for his sexism.
Your attempts to isolate the terms in their little boxes ignores the realities of life. Yes, they are two separate words with separate meanings. But they tend to work in tandem with each other.
Make my case for what? That both are hateful? Ask any woman who has been victimised by the legal system as a rape victim, or any man for that matter, and who have had their rapists walk free or not be prosecuted and who were blamed for their own rapes and see if they think if it was just sexism that was driving it, or a hatred of them and their sex or sexuality..Now you are simply stating it. You have to make your case.
Misogynists are sexist in every sense.Of course I haven't. Misogyny is defined by gyny - the root for female. Sexism is defining someone by their sex. Thus a misogynist is, by definition, a sexist. On this we agree.
But it does not follow that a sexist person is misogynous.
Lack of respect may not be intentional, or even conscious.
Let me be clear: that does not mean it is excusable. I am not excusing lack of respect, I am simply showing that it is distinct from hatred.
Misogyny could not exist without sexism. Hence why they feed off each other. Someone who is sexist can too easily drop a toe in the misogyny puddle and they often do. For example, refusing to prosecute rape cases is sexist. But when you look at the reason behind the refusal to prosecute rape cases, it is usually steeped in misogyny.
Who has argued any differently?Actually you can. I listed a real world example at the top. Sexism toward men happens too.
If this thread were about misandry, we would also be having this discussion.
Not arguing differently. I am saying that sexism feeds misogyny and that a misogynist would not be a misogynist without being sexist. Why? Because they often co-exist.I have also pointed out examples where one can be sexist without hatred.
Here's an example: a poorly-educated person who grew up without our cosmopolitan ways may be certain that "the fairer sex" should not have to do heavy labour. It's the way they grew up.
That is sexism, because they are defining a person by their gender - but there is no hatred involved. They mean no ill will. In fact they mean well - even if misguided.
Again, that does not make it excusable, simply that it is free of hatred.
Chivalry is an example of sexism. Opening a door for lady. Giving a lady a seat on a bus. There is no disrespect intended. There certainly isn't any hatred there. (Again, that does not mean it is appreciated by the woman, simply that the person was more thoughtful of a woman than of a man. One should be thoughtful of everyone - man and woman alike. But that is an error of sexism, not of hatred.)
To be honest with you, I don't even understand why you have even brought up the distinction in this thread, which is about degrees of misogyny.. We all know that sexism and sexist attitudes feeds misogyny as it does misandry. You cannot be a misogynist or a misandrist without being sexist.
Yes and no. The article I linked above actually discusses this point. In the words of Rahila Gupta:Chivalry is an example of sexism. Opening a door for lady. Giving a lady a seat on a bus. There is no disrespect intended. There certainly isn't any hatred there. (Again, that does not mean it is appreciated by the woman, simply that the person was more thoughtful of a woman than of a man. One should be thoughtful of everyone - man and woman alike. But that is an error of sexism, not of hatred.)
We all know that sexism is the pond in which misogyny flourishes and because the water is so murky, you sometimes don't even notice how healthily it grows. And because it is growing in water, it sometimes reflects back at you as love instead of hate. To be specific, sexism is when men let you jump the queue and get on a crowded bus first in Delhi (to confuse matters further, that's called chivalry) and then the poor dears, willy nilly, get crushed up against you as their hands "accidentally" cup your breasts in a frenzy of misogyny.
Now, if a guy lets you on the bus first because you are a woman, with the specific intent of getting himself into position to sexually molest you. Is he sexist or a misogynist? Or is he both?
I never said they were one and the same. I said they feed off each other. They co-exist.I am not discounting it. What I am doing to dismantling the knee-jerk notion that they are one and the same. You are discounting the fact that they are not. You are using too broad a brush.
No I have not. I have not said that the only form of sexism is towards women. On the contrary. This thread is about misogyny, hence towards women. If it were about misogyny and misandry, then my wording would be different. Have you read the thread title?In an ironic twist, your comment is actually sexist. You claim that the only form of sexism is towards women.
And I would appreciate your not trying to twist things around.Does that sexist comment mean you are hateful? No.
And finally, I appreciate your adherence to civil discussion.