Deceived

if you mean, another person deceived you, you may never know.
if you mean a religion, then study all the religious books of the said religion, from that comes knowledge, and from there the answer to whether the religion deceived you.
why do you think some people change there religion, or become atheist.
incidently it may take a few years of study, it's up to you follow blindly or study.
 
audible said:
if you mean, another person deceived you, you may never know.
if you mean a religion, then study all the religious books of the said religion, from that comes knowledge, and from there the answer to whether the religion deceived you.
why do you think some people change there religion, or become atheist.
incidently it may take a few years of study, it's up to you follow blindly or study.
Click to expand...

No, the same principles apply when it comes to knowing whether a religion (or any theory) has deceived you, or whether a person has deceived you: You are only deceived if you believe you were deceived.
Whether you believe to have been deceived depends on how much you trust yourself, not on the one who supposedly deceived you.
 
You are only deceived if you believe you were deceived.
Click to expand...
How does one believe that? Whether you trust yourself or not, how does one come to believe that you were deceived?

If it depends on how much you trust yourself, then should being deceived by someone else show how gullible and ignorant you were? Is the most mentally healthy person the one who trusts himself completely, and believes everything that easily convinces him, or the one who believes nothing and so is never proven wrong?
 
i should imagine the PATTERN of deceit, and finding out the deceit and the reactions are shared throughout ...
for example, i a relationship. you are told you are the only one, and are loved. then usually by cahnce you find out things aint right......you find something, ehar something, see something, get hints. i wonder, do you deny these hints. in my experience i have done this, and i suspect many people do, mainly because the truth is too much to bear. you have been going along in this dream kind of, and you feel a fool, and the facing up to this deceit is gonna rock your world, so that's a reason you may at FIRST deny the deceit

But eventually we have to don't we? or it eats us up, or we live a lie

so translate this to religious belief. if you DO get hints of deceit, what do you do? does your curiousity take over, wjhere you WANT to get to the bottom of it, or do you carry on denying?
 
all I was saying rosa: was that it would be harder to determine whether a person had decieved you, than it would a book/philosophy/a way of life.
yes if you first believed you had been decieved , but then I thought that was obvious by the original post.
and when I looked again, I noticed I had misinterpreted what was said, so rosa sorry I got it wrong, your right.
forgive me.
 
battig1370: > I like your answers.

audible: > "if you mean, another person deceived you, you may never know.

battig1370: > Yes I mean when a person has been deceived by the false religion of their community or nation. When a person knows that the religion of their community is the truth and the way, even though that religion is totaly false, that person will never know that he or she is deceived.

audible: > why do you think some people change there religion, or become atheist.

battig1370: > As long as a person mind is open and seeking, that person is not deceived. Some people change there religion because their seeking for love and truth. I'd say, that most people who become atheist are pissed off toward all religions because their history and lies. But if an atheist stops seeking, he or she may also be deceived.

Peace be with you, Paul
 
Jenyar said:
You are only deceived if you believe you were deceived.
Click to expand...

How does one believe that? Whether you trust yourself or not, how does one come to believe that you were deceived?
If it depends on how much you trust yourself, then should being deceived by someone else show how gullible and ignorant you were? Is the most mentally healthy person the one who trusts himself completely, and believes everything that easily convinces him, or the one who believes nothing and so is never proven wrong?
Click to expand...

The concept of deception comes from our presupposition that we *should* be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent -- but, by some whim of God or nature, aren't so, so woe is us for we are left to the brute forces of coincidence, cunning and all other crap that we find to be exceptionally intimidating to our precious little selves that surely deserve to be something more and better than what they are now.

That is to say, the concept of deception is closely related to vanity.

Deception is one of the ways we can understand the things that happen to us.

Say that you plot against me and lead me on. Some day, I find out about it. How will I feel?

Will I feel deceived? By standards of vanity, I will surely feel deceived. A victim.

By some more earthly standards, I will feel hurt. And that's all. Not deceived, but hurt. Not a victim.
It seems that we are brought up to think that being hurt automatically makes one a victim. Here, the trust in oneself comes in: If not being omnimax doesn't feel like a drawback and a threat to you, if you are competent in your humanity, then deception is not the way you will understand someone's actions against yourself.

Other cases that are called "deception" (as in magic tricks, for example) are, "by these more earthly standards", then merely some "interesting or surprising events", but not "deception". (Yes, in this domain, my explanation is almost too stern. But I still think it applies.)


The principle "You are only deceived if you believe you were deceived." is effective for those who believe that they *can* be "deceived". Satan comes and pulls the strings of their vanity, and then they feel deceived ...


* * *

duendy said:
so translate this to religious belief. if you DO get hints of deceit, what do you do? does your curiousity take over, wjhere you WANT to get to the bottom of it, or do you carry on denying?
Click to expand...

What would be "hints of deceit" in religious matters?


* * *

audible said:
all I was saying rosa: was that it would be harder to determine whether a person had decieved you, than it would a book/philosophy/a way of life.
yes if you first believed you had been decieved , but then I thought that was obvious by the original post.
and when I looked again, I noticed I had misinterpreted what was said, so rosa sorry I got it wrong, your right.
forgive me.
Click to expand...

Hm?! Are you trying to deceive me in any way? :p
 
water: > "You are only deceived if you believe you were deceived."

battig1370: > If you believe you were deceived, why would you still be deceived? Why would a person knowingly believe that the lie is the truth?

Peace be with you, Paul
 
Jenyar: > "how does one come to believe that you were deceived?"

battig1370: > Good question

( deceived: > To believe what is false to be true )

Peace be with you, Paul
 
battig1370 said:
water: > "You are only deceived if you believe you were deceived."

battig1370: > If you believe you were deceived, why would you still be deceived? Why would a person knowingly believe that the lie is the truth?
Click to expand...

It says "You are only deceived if you believe you WERE deceived."

This points out that the deception has eventually been discovered. But until the discovery of deception, the person in question did not know he was being deceived, and may have indeed "believe that the lie is the truth" -- but he has not knowingly "believed that the lie is the truth" until the deception was discovered.

The cognitive structure of "You are only deceived if you believe you were deceived." is that of
You are x if you believe x.

It is a common pattern -- A girl is ugly if she believes she is ugly. No matter what anyone else says or thinks, the reality to that girl is the reality of her belief.
Or the example "I am right because I believe I am right". No matter what anyone else says or thinks, the reality to that person is the reality of his belief.

It is the pattern of You are x if you believe x.
that is faulty. It is self-referencing, and may be sometimes very harmful for the person thinking in this pattern. With some investigation we can discover why a person thinks about a certain phenomenon within this pattern.

As I have begun in the previous post, considering oneself decepted is connected to vanity.
 
You are only deceived if you believe you were deceived.
Click to expand...

Not according to what is known, no.

As I have begun in the previous post, considering oneself decepted is connected to vanity.
Click to expand...

Still no.

A girl is ugly if she believes she is ugly.
Click to expand...

That is unconnected to deception. Ugliness is meaningless; deception is not.

Just because a person believes themselves to be independent does not make them any more so. Michael Jackson, try as he may, is not Peter Pan.
 
battig1370 said:
( deceived: > To believe what is false to be true )
Click to expand...

Hmm, that sounds nice and simple, but is it? Truth is not such a simple thing to determine.

However, does being deceived actually have anything to do with the truth? I.e., can someone tell you something truthfully, yet actually be consciously, willfully attempting to deceiving you?

Baron Max
 
Deceivers are willfull in deceiving, but the deceived is not willfull in passing on the lie as being true. The deceived believe themselves as being truthfull, because they believe what is false to be true. Is it possible that the whole world is deceived when it's about religions.

Peace be with you, Paul
 
water said:
Say that you plot against me and lead me on. Some day, I find out about it. How will I feel?

Will I feel deceived? By standards of vanity, I will surely feel deceived. A victim.

By some more earthly standards, I will feel hurt. And that's all. Not deceived, but hurt. Not a victim.
Click to expand...
I think this is just way to feel victimized. After all, we believe what we see - the computer screen, the keyboard - without any kind of "vanity". We may feel ashamed of assuming too much, of being gullible, but in the end there is no need to feel victimized if it was an honest mistake.

If scientists had to feel done in after ever failed theory we would have much more suicides and low self esteem among academics. Our eyes can "deceive" us to a certain degree, so can our ears, and our minds, in what they accept for truth. But if we keep a healthy amount of realism and humility about what we can know and how much we may trust people with, we'll be able to meet the truth without it shaming us to the ground everytime.

With human relationships, feelings are involved and expectations are created - of trust, confidence, maybe even romance - and when they are disappointed we get hurt. But disappointment or disillusionment alone doesn't qualify as outright deception, or gullibility and is even less reason to feeling victimized.

Maybe the feelings we get from any kind of disappointment - of unfairness, shame, sadness, regret - are also caused by vindictive or deliberate deception. If we try to trace the feelings back to their origin, we might come to the wrong conclusions - possibly the ones we think should be true rather than the ones that are true. Because the experience is almost the same, you could easily believe you have been deceived or shamed, even if you have only been disappointed.

You aren't personally responsible for everything that happens to you. Maybe that is a kind of vanity, to believe you have such control over everything. But even the emotionally laden word "vanity" practically ensures that you wil be found "vain" some way or the other, and you'll always be haunted by a dark fear that the world is out to expose it.

Cris is right: only the truth can clear it up.
 
battig1370: > When a person insists that the lie is the truth, the truth cannot be revealed this person.

The reason I brought up the subject of being deceived is that a truth has been revealed to me about the Damascus road event, which is, "The Deceiver came to Saul/St.Paul and said, "I am the Jesus of Nazareth" and from this event christianity was founded, which HIJACKED and ADDED extra doctrines to the Jesus movement of that day." <---> But Christians believe it was Jesus that came to Saul/St.Paul, and from this event christianity was founded to ADD extra doctrines to the Jesus movement of that day.

Christians know that I am deceived, and I know that the Christians are deceived. If we are only going by number, than you would conclude that I am the one that is deceived; because you may think, how is it possible that over a billion people over a timer period of nearly 2000 years can be deceived?

From a Christian point of view, is it possible that Christians are deceived about the Damascus Road Event?

Peace be with you, Paul
 
of course, example if a trillion children in school were taught about something which every one of the teachers believed was true but it was'nt, all because thay had be given false info or even if it was a typo, it would be wrong even though they thought it was right would'nt it.
so it matters not how many believe a things right that does not make it right does it.
if a thing is wrong it's wrong.
no amount of pushing and proding is going to change that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top