Dealing with burglars

[Xev]

Bells:

Had he been a gun toting lunatic, he would have grabbed his gun and aimed for the door as soon as the guy had started pounding on it, thereby shooting the innocent neighbour.

Speaking as a red-blooded, blue-votin', gun totin' lunatic liberal - okay, sorry, bad Xev, no alliteration - I take offense.

A person who knows and respects their weapon does not ever, ever use it lightly.

Just had to, you know, get all "my cold dead fingers".

Nasor:

I wouldn’t have a problem with the law coming down hard on people who mistakenly shoot innocent people.

Nor would I.

I admit that I spoke a bit hastily in my original post, so I’ll amend my position: I think that in most cases simply finding a robber in your house is sufficient in itself to justify both an assumption that your life is in danger and the accompanying use of deadly force.

Two problems -

First, I don't think that intent to rob necessarily implies intent to kill. More likely the opposite - most robbers just want to take what they can and get out. In all liklihood, they did not expect you to be there. Also likely, they are not armed, since they'd generally have pawned the gun for cash. So assuming murderous intent is not quite warrented.

It may be great for the genepool if we allowed people to simply shoot incompetant robbers, I think the ancient Spartans had simular regulations, but it doesn't fit our accepted judicial standards.

Most importantly, intent to rob is not necessarily clear-cut. Oh certainly, there is no innocent explanation for a masked gentleman to remove your stereo system at three am in the morning, but as Bells pointed out, it is not wise to assume that a seeming intruder is necessarily an intruder, let alone a robber.

We crack down on people who use excessive force against robbers, in part because we understand this possibility. Deterrence is a major part of the law...or ought to be.

Second, which is somewhat beyond the point, but confronting a possibly dangerous person, who may have a gun, when you do not absolutely have to, is really, really fucking stupid.

I’ll leave it up to you to decide for yourself what sort of evidence you require to have a high level of certainty that the intruder is actually a criminal rather than an employee of the gas company. Frankly, in most cases I don't think it would be a very difficult call to make.

But this is a rare scenerio to begin with, and I doubt statistics would signify much. As you point out, it's a personal judgement call.

My instincts are also to side with the homeowner. Most innocuous people would recognize their being innocuous, and explain their presence. Furthermore, I don't think a robber has a reasonable right to expect calm treatment - he made the decision to take up that line of work, dumbass gets shot, too bad for him.

However, I am also NOT in favor of hysterical shitheads shooting thier roomate's boyfriends because they panic at the sight of a strange male. This must also be considered.

 

[Roman]

If someone broke into my house and I knew it was an intruder, I wouldn't hesitate to use lethal force.

The guy could be after my stereo, or he could be after my sister. I don't know, and don't feel like hanging around to find out. He's in the wrong breaking in, not me. I'm the victim here. By acting outside of the law and in the realm of sociopaths, the robber puts himself at risk. On that side of things, I think using potentially lethal force force is just fine for property crimes.

Unfortunately, most of the people who get a gun to shoot intruders are scared of intruders, and see threats in every passing shadow and black man. Recently in Alaska, a man (maybe two?) broke into a church owned building (read: tax shelter), next door to the pastor's house. The pastor saw it go down, got out of bed with his .454 Taurus (maybe it wasn't that big of a gun, but it was a big gun), and then shot the intruders in the back. A lot. And he got away with it. Whatever happened to helping a brother in need or turning the other cheek? What a fucking hypocrite.

 

[Dr Lou Natic]

Why would a scumbag junkie's life be more important to me than my possessions?
I'd sooner kill him than have him shift something to where I couldn't find it, let alone take something.
If your own life is in danger there's obviously no argument to be had, I think even if it isn't, the kind of people who need to break into people's houses to get crack money(or bread money- doesn't matter) should naturally be weeded out of society by people who had what it took to acquire a house and are competent at defending their own territory.

I actually couldn't call someone a man if their first reaction to hearing a burglar in the house was to climb out the window and go hide in the bushes. Such a person doesn't deserve a house and the burglar should actually be given the house and the losers salary.

Like I said, if it could be drilled into society that strolling into other peoples houses was unacceptable and appropriate measures were taken so this was resoundingly clear, there wouldn't be a problem.
The only people that could be mistaken for someone up to no good would be people who were up to no good.
And it really makes no difference in what way they are up to no good, they might just want to tred mud on the carpets, whatever, they can expect to die.
That way most would just pass on trying to steal a stereo. It wouldn't be worth it.
Some would be desperate enough to try, and they could die, who really gives a fuck?
Bears die all the time, bears who don't even have abhorrent traits. And you want to deprive the grimreaper of a scum sucking "down on his luck" shit bag thief? A ratty fuck clinging on to life even though he's a member of the most pampered species in history? How fucking useless do you have to be to "struggle" to live as a human being?
He should be killed by the first conscientious person aware of his situation, well before he even considered breaking into my house, just for being such a pathetic example of the homo-sapien.

Also, anything in your property should legally become your property. I'd love to kill a burglar, spray his carcass with "stank off" and impale him on the picket fence as a warning for other would be burglars.
Why should his pathetic family get the comfort of obtaining their son's filthy feculent hepatitus b-harbouring body? Just so they can weep on it and feel sorry for themselves.
Like they did a real good fucking job They don't deserve anything.
I killed the bastard, I should be able to keep him.
Right?

 

[vslayer]

why does everyone even need to shoot at robbers, if you can sneak up with a gun, you can sneak up and put him in a headlock while getting someone else to call the cops, no need for lethal force, besides, only in america do ordinary people have handguns, they need to realise that the 4th amendment was created during the time of civil wars and slavoury, when people may actually be threatened

 

[Bells]

Xev

Speaking as a red-blooded, blue-votin', gun totin' lunatic liberal - okay, sorry, bad Xev, no alliteration - I take offense.

A person who knows and respects their weapon does not ever, ever use it lightly.

That's the thing though Xev. Most people who own a gun do not know how to use their weapon, nor do they respect it, and will take it out even if they see a shadow. Look at that father who shot at a shadow when he got home and saw the door open, killing his own son. Why did he have a loaded gun in his car? Who in the hell gets around with a loaded gun close at hand and who is not a police officer? I'm baffled that people can be so fearful that they actually carry loaded guns around with them.

When I was very little and still living in the country of my birth, my father had guns hunting rifles and a handgun. He liked to hunt and he liked going to the shooting range. The gun was never loaded and the guns themselves were kept in a safe and the bullets in a strong box outside of the house. If someone broke in and dad needed the guns, he'd have had to go to the safe in the house and then trundle out to the garage to get the bullets. He gave them all up when his best friend's son was playing with his father's gun and shot dead his 8 year old cousin. My father has never owned or kept a gun since. He's never even touched a gun since then.

Lou

I actually couldn't call someone a man if their first reaction to hearing a burglar in the house was to climb out the window and go hide in the bushes. Such a person doesn't deserve a house and the burglar should actually be given the house and the losers salary.

Imagine a man with a wife and kids in the house when he hears the burglar in the house. A true man would get his family and himself out of the house instead of putting his own life and that of his family in danger by going to confront the intruder.

A true man knows when to walk away.

 

[Xev]

Lou Natic:

Why would a scumbag junkie's life be more important to me than my possessions?

It shouldn't be.
However, society has an interest in keeping its members from blowing away innocent and potentially needful visitors to their domiciles.

Bells:

Most people who own a gun do not know how to use their weapon, nor do they respect it, and will take it out even if they see a shadow

Then the socially responsible thing to do is to shoot them for their idiocy.

 

[CounslerCoffee]

And the easiest solution is:

Keep a bat next to your bed. If you hear a noise, don’t investigate. Stand by your door and wait for the fucker to turn a corner. If he comes around the corner apply the bat to his face. Call the police or keep beating him, your choice, really.

 

[sideshowbob]

I am a Canadian and therefore peaceful by nature.
I am also a bleeding-heart liberal, against capital punishment, yada yada yada.

However, I do defend myself and my property "with extreme prejudice".

I keep a machete by my bed and I will use it on any uninvited "guests". When I finally call the police I will tell them to bring a mop.

If I am prosecuted, so be it. There comes a time when visceral self-preservation supercedes ethics.

 

[Calvin]

i agree. although canadian, i also have a distaste for burglars. i keep 2 knives by my bed. as for being prosecuted, i'd let the lawyer speak for me and i never give many details to cops, that way i have the same advantage as the thief.