Curious?

[Redoubtable]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Redoubtable
What if God was creating a random variable within this limited time frame.

To the eyes of an omniscient being, there could never be such a thing as randomness.

This is because randomness is a dellusion of humanity, a substitute for the inconceivable:

There are set, axiomatic laws which govern the finite amount of matter I mentioned in my earlier post.
Man, being sorely limited in longevity and awareness, cannot possibly know all these laws and observe them in action. Though I by no means wish to be as obscure as Xev, I must say that this is verified by the Uncertainty Principle of Heisenberg. Man, by his frailty, is doomed to ignorance of the Truth, the actual reality. This allows him to create the illusion of randomness.
In truth no event can be random, for every event is the consequence of a fomer event. An event cannot occur without stimulus, and only a previous event can serve as such. Therefore, all things we mundane humans might call "random" or "spontaneous" are merely the inevitable result of a chain of events.

I will now proceed to elaborate on this "chain of events." Thomas Aquinas insisted that God was the "First Cause," the original, primeval stimulus for all events. However, I must insist he was in error.

Though you, as a theist, may disagree, it is my belief that the temporal dimension is limitless. I mean to say, time is never-ending. I base this belief on the simple fact that existence seems to require it: In order for something to exist, there must be an elementary component which is eternal.
Since energy and matter can be equated and are indestructible, they are our one eternal component. They are eternal and thus constitute existence; this implies, in my opinion, that time will continue forever.
For what is time but the progression of existence, that which is made eternal by the indestructibility of matter/energy, the elementary component?

Now, with these assertions . . .

- Matter and energy are limited in quantity but limitless in duration, or existence.
- With the progression of their existence, namely time, matter and energy can be formed into arrangements which can be termed as events.
- A certain event or events can only be caused by preceding event or events.
- There are set laws which govern the formation of these arrangements, or 'events'.
- In the eternity of existence, every event that is caused to exist once will exist again, but only under the same circumstances under which it was caused to exist originally.

. . . it can be observed that the history of the Universe should be a cosmic circle.
It is an ever-repeating story, limited to a finite number of events, each one being a consequence of the last. There can be no deviation, no randomness in the actual reality, the Truth.

The Truth, as I so solemnly put it, is beyond human comprehension. It is the ever-repeated tale of the universe, beginning with the creation, the Inflation as some deem it, and inevitable ending in the Crunch, the climax, which is, of course, only grounds for a new beginning. There could, admittedly, be mulitple inflations and crunchings in each repitition, but it is reasonable to pick only one of these moments of stagnation as the beginning and end. This is no necessity, but simply a scruple. One could really begin at any point on the cosmic circle.
However, don't get idealistic on me; when I state "new beginning," I don't mean "whole new story". It's the same story. It has to be. I base this on the fact that in one cycle of the cosmic wheel, all possible events would have occurred; if they hadn't, they weren't possible to begin with. Ergo, the one possible result of the ending is the Beginning, and the one possible result of the Beginning is that ONE STORY. I must quote myself I suppose: "There can be no randomness, no deviation, in the actual reality, the Truth." The story of the universe is the only possible story, and it cannot change, as it is the only getable result from the ending of the last story.
Aquinas was wrong, God is not necessary to the existence of the Universe. The Universe is an ever-repeating cycle, an explosion of excitement and power and vivacity that is its own cause.

Though I really can't remember why I started this post, I will conclude:
The Universe is like a novel; no matter how many times you read it, it''ll always be the same story. When one thinks about it a bit, it really isn't important or relevant that the story repeats itself. It's the story itself that is important, not the repitition! This is the only way it can be! Haha! That's so . . . self-actualiizing!

So who reads the novel? Maybe that's God!?!?

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Redoubtable
To the eyes of an omniscient being, there could never be such a thing as randomness.

This is because randomness is a dellusion of humanity, a substitute for the inconceivable...

It could be that randomness is an illusion, but because of the limits of human experience, it is quite a valid and observable illusion. Its limits do not impose on its freedom. The same with free will. IMO it's overrated as a theoritical concept.

Take for instance an ant. If we know its environment, the dangers it will face, its physical and mental limitations, and its lifespan, is it still free? Yes. It's actions might still be random, but how random can they be? Do we limit it by our knowledge? But we can say for certain 1)It will die 2)It will never reach Poland unless I take it there. I can show it the way to Poland, and tell it that life is paradise there, and even sweep the road on the way there, but it might still choose to wallow in its freedom and walk around randomly. Even if we could be in its mind, see out of its eyes, suggest possible decisions, we would not limit its "free will". It's a difference of scale and perspective - things become more complicated the deeper you go into it. Once the ant is aware of us, he might envy our knowledge, try to twist our arm to "get ahead" of other ants, even accuse us for knowing its limits and therefore enforcing them.

People can do the same. Even if our "free will" isn't ultimately free (someone once said it is limited by either passion or reason) it is still free within our frame of reference. We are created free within our creation, but ultimately our life is a choice in itself.

Though you, as a theist, may disagree, it is my belief that the temporal dimension is limitless. I mean to say, time is never-ending. I base this belief on the simple fact that existence seems to require it: In order for something to exist, there must be an elementary component which is eternal.

Wesmorris and maybe Cris will disagree with you. Wes said the universe is currently estimated to be 15 billion years old. If you can date it, it can't be timeless, it seems. I don't necessarily agree, but follow from my example above, I think it is only our perspective from within a temporal world that creates the ability to "date" things. Think about it - time is only relevant if you can find a use for it. Otherwise events just "are" (a form of eternity).

I agree with your conclusion, though. Except that I think you are missing one thing. Some things are not limited to time. Thoughts for example. If thought wasn't dependent on someone holding on to it, nothing could make it degenerate. It is only because it is dependent on a body that degenerates that it isn't eternal. But we have this concept of "truth" and "beauty" that seems to defy any influence of time. Truth (at least as a principle) is not dependent on the observer, although beauty is.

Since energy and matter can be equated and are indestructible, they are our one eternal component. They are eternal and thus constitute existence; this implies, in my opinion, that time will continue forever.
For what is time but the progression of existence, that which is made eternal by the indestructibility of matter/energy, the elementary component?

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Matter is only an observation of energy, not an equal to it. If matter (or mass) stood perfectly still within time and space, and no light could reach it, would it still have energy, if E=mc^2? I have no idea.

Time is the perceived progression of existance. It cannot exist outside consciousness - just like randomness, morality, love, or will. If eternity is really a "truth" then it is only a qualifier - an attribute - something that isn't limited to just time.

Now, with these assertions . . .

- Matter and energy are limited in quantity but limitless in duration, or existence.
- With the progression of their existence, namely time, matter and energy can be formed into arrangements which can be termed as events.
- A certain event or events can only be caused by preceding event or events.
- There are set laws which govern the formation of these arrangements, or 'events'.
- In the eternity of existence, every event that is caused to exist once will exist again, but only under the same circumstances under which it was caused to exist originally.

. . . it can be observed that the history of the Universe should be a cosmic circle.
It is an ever-repeating story, limited to a finite number of events, each one being a consequence of the last. There can be no deviation, no randomness in the actual reality, the Truth.

The author of Ecclesiastics 1 seems to agree with you:
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
"Look! This is something new"?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.

"There can be no randomness, no deviation, in the actual reality, the Truth." The story of the universe is the only possible story, and it cannot change, as it is the only getable result from the ending of the last story.
Aquinas was wrong, God is not necessary to the existence of the Universe. The Universe is an ever-repeating cycle, an explosion of excitement and power and vivacity that is its own cause.

It our only possible story, our only reality, our only view on "truth", "eternity" and whatever else we can conclude about it, from it, and from each other.

But the universe is not necessary for the existence of God. It was created for a purpose, and will return to Him when that purpose as been achieved. Just because we can't escape from it, and even find it hard to imagine anything besides it, does not mean we can't have knowledge from anything outside it. Ever thought how a closed system, that needs all its parts simultaneously, came into existence?

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. (Is.55)

Though I really can't remember why I started this post, I will conclude:
The Universe is like a novel; no matter how many times you read it, it''ll always be the same story. When one thinks about it a bit, it really isn't important or relevant that the story repeats itself. It's the story itself that is important, not the repitition! This is the only way it can be! Haha! That's so . . . self-actualiizing!

Exactly. It is a complete, self-actualizing system, like a circle. But its beginning did not cause its end, or its end cause its begining.

So who reads the novel? Maybe that's God!?!?

Maybe God wrote it in the first place!