Crime and Punishment

[KilljoyKlown]

I decided to start a new thread after Fragle posted the following in the Narcissism topic.

Every law enforcement agency in America has a huge file of unsolved crimes. Surely in some cases the actual perpetrator was caught and managed not to be convicted, but in many others no arrest was ever made.

Add to that the huge number of crimes that are never reported. It's awfully inconvenient to stay home from work while the cops paw through your apartment, looking for clues that aren't there to catch a petty thief who will never be found.

The government concentrates its resources on the crimes that threaten the very fabric of civilization, like murder, rape and kidnapping. It also likes to intimidate the average citizen by both persecuting and prosecuting "crimes against morality" committed by consenting adults such as prostitution and recreational drug use.

Other crimes that result in only small monetary damage and no physical harm to people get the lowest priority. Crooks who are neither stupid nor greedy specialize in these crimes because, as you say, the odds are very good that they will never be caught. Shoplifting, purse-snatching, locker-jacking, opportunistic pilfering from distracted parents in the park, robbery by intimidation, sneaking into cars and houses left briefly unlocked and emerging with a small amount of loot that can be easily concealed... a person can almost live on the proceeds of these crimes.

I did some searches on how many people steal and found this comment about Walmart.

Q. How many people steal stuff from walmart each day?
A. Some of the larger 24 hour stores arrest 6 shoplifters a day. Their new policy is not to prosecute if it's under $25.

I then wanted to know how much loss do to theft Walmart reported last year and found the following information.

Wal-Mart Posts a $3 Billion Dollar Loss Due to Theft

Someone walks into your local neighborhood Wal-Mart, picks up a flat screen television, and walks out without paying. According to the Associated Press, this is happening everyday at Wal-Marts around the world, and Tuesday Wal-Mart posted a $3 billion dollar loss for the year of 2006, due to theft.
While the retailer is not giving details on what types of crimes are being committed in the stores, analysts say shoplifting, employee theft, paperwork errors and supplier fraud are the main contributers.

"We are concerned about shrinkage and are investigating the cause and are taking steps to correct it," said Eduardo Castro-Wright, president and CEO of Wal-Mart's U.S. store division. However, company officials won't comment on those countermeasures.

Some people have accused Wal-Mart of cutting its security staff over the past few years by as much as 40 percent, but Wal-Mart rejects these claims. Adding that employee morale has risen over the past year, not fallen.

While a $3 billion dollar loss would be devastating to most companies, it hardly put a dent in Wal-Mart's profits. In fact, they posted $348.6 billion dollars in sales last year.

Since the introduction of new technology in the mid-90's, shrinkage throughout the retail world has declined. However, all the technology in the world is futile when store employees are in on the scam.

According to the National Retail Federation report for 2006, 47 percent of all dollars lost came from employee theft, while shoplifting accounted for about 32 percent, administrative errors account for 14 percent, and supplier fraud accounts for 4 percent. The remaining 3 percent remains unaccounted for.

A common scam occurs when a cashier at Wal-Mart allows someone to walk out of the store without paying. The cashier will make it look as though they have scanned the item, fooling security cameras, when in reality they never scanned the product at all.

Another factor that has very likely played a large role in the $3 billion dollar loss, is Wal-Mart's new shoplifting policy. They moved from a zero-tolerance policy last year to a new policy that only prosecutes first-time offenders if they are between ages 18 to 65 and steal at least $25 worth of merchandise.

It is almost certain that the policy change emboldened people worldwide to shoplift from the store.

Even with a growing number of scams and a growing shrinkage loss, Wal-Mart seems unaffected. Stock prices remain strong and investors still swarm to the retailer's stock with no fear.

Sources:

The Associated Press, "Wal-Mart losing $3 billion a year from thefts" AZCentral.com. URL: (http://www.azcentral.com/business/consumer/articles/0613biz-walmarttheft13-ON.html)

I now have to ask how does one walk out of a Walmart with a large flat screen TV without paying for it? Even if Walmart doesn't consider 3 billion dollars a year as something to worry about. That's a lot of people getting away with some major new stuff.

I've been using Walmart as an example, but if we were to extend that percentage of theft to other businesses across the U.S. the total has to be really massive. So much so that I wonder how much of my income goes to support those thieves in the form of higher prices and taxes.

 

[skaught]

I think on average, walmart pulls in something around $800 billion per year. $3 billion isn't even a cough. It would probably cost them more to take preventative measures than it would to just let the stuff go.

 

[birch]

I've been using Walmart as an example, but if we were to extend that percentage of theft to other businesses across the U.S. the total has to be really massive. So much so that I wonder how much of my income goes to support those thieves in the form of higher prices and taxes.

is this a joke?

that 3 billion doesn't even include the loss and damage from return products as well as just leftover stock. they also throw away billions in products per year which is way, way more than the three billion change. not only do they throw it away but destroy it instead of giving it to charity or put to use, though some do. the amount of waste is apalling.

this doesn't just apply to walmart but to most businesses.

 

[chimpkin]

The reason they don't go after petty theft also has something to do with why I never, ever want to work retail security...lawsuit city.

I would not work as a loss prevention officer without carrying legal liability insurance, I would not make much more money, if any more at all... and I would get to put up with all sorts of iffy situations, petty crap and intra-employee politics...

No. Uh-uh.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I think on average, walmart pulls in something around $800 billion per year. $3 billion isn't even a cough. It would probably cost them more to take preventative measures than it would to just let the stuff go.

Maybe but 3 billion is nothing to sneer at. I would think that much of that loss is caused by thieving employees and catching and getting rid of thieving employees should always be a priority. Especially those greeters looking to supplement their income by letting the big stuff get out of the store.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

is this a joke?

that 3 billion doesn't even include the loss and damage from return products as well as just leftover stock. they also throw away billions in products per year which is way, way more than the three billion change. not only do they throw it away but destroy it instead of giving it to charity or put to use, though some do. the amount of waste is apalling.

this doesn't just apply to walmart but to most businesses.

Your probably right, but I just wanted to focus on criminal activity. Most mismanagement doesn't qualify as criminal unless people get hurt and even then not real likely.

 

[skaught]

Maybe but 3 billion is nothing to sneer at. I would think that much of that loss is caused by thieving employees and catching and getting rid of thieving employees should always be a priority. Especially those greeters looking to supplement their income by letting the big stuff get out of the store.

I've worked in a lot of retail environments. At a managers training seminar, they had a class on loss prevention. They taught that out of 10 employees, eight will steal from you if they see a chance to do so with no risk of getting caught. one will absolutely steal from you, even if they risk of getting caught is high, and only one will absolutely not steal from you at all.

Again, the cost of prevention is probably higher than just letting a few things go...

 

[KilljoyKlown]

The reason they don't go after petty theft also has something to do with why I never, ever want to work retail security...lawsuit city.

I would not work as a loss prevention officer without carrying legal liability insurance, I would not make much more money, if any more at all... and I would get to put up with all sorts of iffy situations, petty crap and intra-employee politics...

No. Uh-uh.

Ah! But some of the highest paid jobs are in resolving trouble. The bigger the trouble the more you get paid to resolve it. If the companies want to fix their problems they have to pay the people that can do it for them.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I've worked in a lot of retail environments. At a managers training seminar, they had a class on loss prevention. They taught that out of 10 employees, eight will steal from you if they see a chance to do so with no risk of getting caught. one will absolutely steal from you, even if they risk of getting caught is high, and only one will absolutely not steal from you at all.

Again, the cost of prevention is probably higher than just letting a few things go...

Well I would say install lots of hard to detect cameras and let the employees know and then concentrate on getting rid of the one that will absolutely steal from you, and make it a public example to the rest of the employees.

 

[birch]

I've worked in a lot of retail environments. At a managers training seminar, they had a class on loss prevention. They taught that out of 10 employees, eight will steal from you if they see a chance to do so with no risk of getting caught. one will absolutely steal from you, even if they risk of getting caught is high, and only one will absolutely not steal from you at all.

and this shouldn't surprise anyone with any self-honesty about people. most are sociopaths. if they weren't, there wouldn't need to be laws.

 

[chimpkin]

Ah! But some of the highest paid jobs are in resolving trouble. The bigger the trouble the more you get paid to resolve it. If the companies want to fix their problems they have to pay the people that can do it for them.

It's not a resolvable trouble. It's chronic, unsolvable, and laden with potential to get the guard sued.

I'd rather do security in an ER and get barfed on, thanks.

 

[cosmictraveler]

It's not a resolvable trouble. It's chronic, unsolvable, and laden with potential to get the guard sued.

Anything can be solved all it takes is time and money. How much is anyone going to pay to insure they won't get anything stolen from them is the real question. If adequate security measures are put in place, that's allot of money that will be needed in many cases, then the business won't worry about theft. As an example in some retail jewelry stores they have two large, unbreakable bullet proof security doors that allow a person to enter into the first area then they shut the first door while the second one is still locked , then they open the second one to let the customer into the store. Going out is just reversed.All jewelry is encased in a locked, break proof glass display cases and only the owner can make a sale, there's no other employees other than family members.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I suppose before you start a business, you must consider where your losses are going to come from. For instance, if you sell cars, theft might not be much of a worry, but various types of employee fraud might be a bigger concern. It always seems to come back to managing your employees and keeping a fairly tight control over them.

I haven't really been aware of businesses having to pay protection money much anymore. But we do have a serious gang problem in the U.S. and gangs do like to collect protection money from businesses in their territory. So I would guess the businesses don't report the problem much if they want to stay healthy?

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I just saw the following news article and think I know how most will respond to my question.

Q - Do you think this was a fair punishment for the crime, and would you like to see something like that in the U.S.?


2,080 lashes for Saudi man who raped daughter

By The Associated Press

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia -- An official Saudi newspaper says a man convicted of raping his daughter has been sentenced to receive 2,080 lashes over the course of a 13-year prison term.

The court in the holy city of Mecca found the man guilty of raping his teenage daughter for seven years while under the influence of drugs.

The Okaz newspaper reported Saturday that the man will receive the lashes in stages throughout his prison sentence. The man's name was not published.

Saudi religious police say the girl's uncle tipped them off to the crime.

Lashing is one of the penalties available to the clerics who serve as judges in Saudi Arabia and issue rulings according to the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islamic law.

 

[scheherazade]

Crime and punishment......attempting to balance one against the other is no easy matter, in some cases.

Where simple material property is concerned, business has wisely decided to deal with 'shrink' from whatever the cause, as a necessary operating expense and to budget accordingly. It's all just numbers on a balance sheet and strategies to reduce same will only be considered if they can demonstrably improve the balance sheet with the cost of implementation factored. Deterrents do not seem to work with some people, while the shrink due to 'operational difficulties' is as often human error as mechanical failure.

Once you shift the scene to intentional crimes against a person, no matter what influence under, the aspect of punishment gets a great deal more scrutiny. As I do not live in the U.S., I leave comment on your question to others.

 

[elte]

I suppose before you start a business, you must consider where your losses are going to come from. For instance, if you sell cars, theft might not be much of a worry, but various types of employee fraud might be a bigger concern. It always seems to come back to managing your employees and keeping a fairly tight control over them.

I haven't really been aware of businesses having to pay protection money much anymore. But we do have a serious gang problem in the U.S. and gangs do like to collect protection money from businesses in their territory. So I would guess the businesses don't report the problem much if they want to stay healthy?

Considering all aspects of crime and crime prevention, I estimate the cost in terms of materials and person-hours as high as 2 trillion dollars per year just for the U.S. That includes dealing with keys for various types of locks, dealing with security systems, security measures for finances, computers, etc. Just the general drag on our minds from staying conscious of threats takes a big toll on productivity. It involves having to remember bank account numbers, secret question answers, numerous passwords, and PINs. Then there is lost opportunity cost from people who avoid doing productive things that they would normally do. Our activity is hindered by security measures for half of each day, more or less.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

Crime and punishment......attempting to balance one against the other is no easy matter, in some cases.

Where simple material property is concerned, business has wisely decided to deal with 'shrink' from whatever the cause, as a necessary operating expense and to budget accordingly. It's all just numbers on a balance sheet and strategies to reduce same will only be considered if they can demonstrably improve the balance sheet with the cost of implementation factored. Deterrents do not seem to work with some people, while the shrink due to 'operational difficulties' is as often human error as mechanical failure.

Once you shift the scene to intentional crimes against a person, no matter what influence under, the aspect of punishment gets a great deal more scrutiny. As I do not live in the U.S., I leave comment on your question to others.

I'm sure you have an opinion on that type of punishment. I did a quick calculation and over 13 years that would come to 13.3 lashes per month, 26.6 every 2 months or 40 lashes every 3 months. If we are to assume the lashes leave bloody welts, I think 3 months would be needed to heal each period of lashings. Can you imagine how bad that 13 years of incarceration is going to be. It's utterly horrifying and yet when you consider he was a drugged out parent who raped his child repeatedly over a period of 7 years. While it's hard to have much sympathy for that man, I have to wonder if he knew what kind of punishment he would get if he got caught, and why didn't that deter him?

 

[KilljoyKlown]

Considering all aspects of crime and crime prevention, I estimate the cost in terms of materials and person-hours as high as 2 trillion dollars per year just for the U.S. That includes dealing with keys for various types of locks, dealing with security systems, security measures for finances, computers, etc. Just the general drag on our minds from staying conscious of threats takes a big toll on productivity. It involves having to remember bank account numbers, secret question answers, numerous passwords, and PINs. Then there is lost opportunity cost from people who avoid doing productive things that they would normally do. Our activity is hindered by security measures for half of each day, more or less.

You make a very good point. But did that 2 trillion a year include the very large infrastructure we in the U.S. have for dealing with crime and criminals when convicted. The large police force, the large numbers of lawyers and judges and other supporting personnel for processing the criminals. All the prison facilities for housing and feeding them for however long? The lost productivity is staggering.

 

[elte]

You make a very good point. But did that 2 trillion a year include the very large infrastructure we in the U.S. have for dealing with crime and criminals when convicted. The large police force, the large numbers of lawyers and judges and other supporting personnel for processing the criminals. All the prison facilities for housing and feeding them for however long? The lost productivity is staggering.

You are so right! I wrote this before I saw your reply: I forgot to mention the cost of police forces, court systems, prisons, parole programs, and home incarcerations that are implemented to fight domestic crime, as well as the armed forces needed to curtail crime between nation states. The cost of crime and crime prevention is flat-out humongous.

The two trillion dollar U.S. cost is probably low because it is hard to imagine just how crime and its prevention pervades just about every facet of our lives. I estimate that I put out a couple hundred dollars worth of labor per year just messing with my bicycle lock, twice, every time I use the bike.

All that is before even considering property loss and how that can really put a drag on living. Hassle has to be endured to repair and replace, and the lost time and trouble before that even gets done can get very inhibitive.

 

[chimpkin]

I'm sure you have an opinion on that type of punishment. I did a quick calculation and over 13 years that would come to 13.3 lashes per month, 26.6 every 2 months or 40 lashes every 3 months. If we are to assume the lashes leave bloody welts, I think 3 months would be needed to heal each period of lashings. Can you imagine how bad that 13 years of incarceration is going to be. It's utterly horrifying and yet when you consider he was a drugged out parent who raped his child repeatedly over a period of 7 years. While it's hard to have much sympathy for that man, I have to wonder if he knew what kind of punishment he would get if he got caught, and why didn't that deter him?

Because he didn't think he'd get caught, of course. Probably didn't think he was doing anything wrong anyway, child rapists don't see what they are doing as wrong...they make all sorts of interesting mental justifications.

My thought? Wow, that's an appropriate punishment!
Would enjoy seeing my dad take 40 lashes on a trimonthly basis. I'd want to record it.
So the next time a panic attack or a flashback makes me cry and shake like a leaf...I have a nice video to play that makes me feel soooo much better.