creationism taught in michigan schools

P

paulsamuel

Registered Senior Member
anyone heard of this?

"Folks:
My daughter's 7th grade science teacher showed the class a creationist video
entitled "Evolution...Fact or Belief?".* My daughter was particularly
offended by the statement in it that evolutionary biologists aren't
scientists!* Some of us are working with the school district to help educate
the teachers about why the facts presented in the video are bogus (two of
the teachers believe that the evidence in this video proves evolution to be
false), and I am wondering if anyone out there has already put together a
response to this particular video.
Thanks,
Jeff

--
Jeff Conner
Professor
Kellogg Biological Station and Department of Plant Biology
Michigan State University
3700 East Gull Lake Drive, Hickory Corners, MI* 49060
e-mail: connerj@msu.edu
http://www.kbs.msu.edu/Faculty/Conner/Index.htm
Phone: 269-671-2269
FAX:** 269-671-2104
Jeff Conner <connerj@kbs.msu.edu>"

aren't there any minimum education requiremnts to be a teacher??

why are some of the most narrow minded people i know teachers?

Idiots!!
 
Paul,

Creationists like to repeat the same, worn out, old arguments, which have been debunked a thousand times by real scientists.
I haven't seen the video, but I can pretty much guess what is on it.

Here is a list which refutes hundreds of Creationist claims: www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/

I am sure that you will find it most useful.

Also, if these guys on the videos are Creationists, then they will no doubt be taking evolutionists out of context. So, here is the talkorigins quote mine, which will help in that area: www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/project.html

If you have any specific question, feel free to post them here, or PM me.
 
I'm sure Paul can handle any creationist he comes across, so I wouldn't worry about that. I think his issue is that some teachers, people in a position of power in that they teach children, abuse that power and teach according to their own agenda, or aren't educated enough to know better.
 
Idle Mind said:
I'm sure Paul can handle any creationist he comes across, so I wouldn't worry about that. I think his issue is that some teachers, people in a position of power in that they teach children, abuse that power and teach according to their own agenda, or aren't educated enough to know better.
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EXACTLY!!! Thank you
 
I'm sure Paul can handle any creationist he comes across,
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I beg to differ.

I have no doubt that Paul is far more scientific, intelligent and objective than most Creationists.
However, Creationists have an array of dirty tactics to counter science.

Can Paul single-handedly filter through every evolution publication, to check wheither an evolutionists has been taken out of context?

All a Creationist has to do is spew out 100 meaningless, old, debunked arguments to sow doubt in the layman's mind.

If Paul fails to answer one (and he undoubtly will, since nobody is a biologist-physcist- chemist-paleontologist-biochemist-geologist, etc.), then evolution appears to be a theory in crisis.

Think of a beautiful statue. It takes years to create, and only a few seconds for a fool to destroy it. That resembles evolution vs. creationism battle. All creationists have to do is fire some lame, unscientific argument, and it will take you 100 times longer to correct. For example, a Creationist says "Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics!". You will then be forced to explain the 2nd law in detail, because just saying "Does not!" will have the audience thinking "aha! Evolution is a theory in crisis!"

Instead of debunking every Creationist lie in the video, focus on just a few. Highlight how the Creationists have lied in detail. Then, show Creationism for the BS that it is. Point out how it contradicts evidence from every field of science. Point out all of it's past embarrassments (Paluxy footprints), and the impossibility of the Flood fairytale.
 
mountainhare said:
I beg to differ.


If Paul fails to answer one (and he undoubtly will, since nobody is a biologist-physcist- chemist-paleontologist-biochemist-geologist, etc.), then evolution appears to be a theory in crisis.
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the point is to prevent arrogant teachers from circumventing scientific curricula to teach religion,

not to argue with creationists over evolution, that argument being won by science almost 150 years ago.

AND,


I'll kick any creationist's argument right in its butt!

The theory of evolution is much more robust than you portray it to be.
 
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paulsamuel said:
I'll kick any creationist's argument right in its butt!

The theory of evolution is much more robust than you portray it to be.
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You misunderstand. Everyone here agrees that evolution is a very robust and well-supported theory. The problem is that creationists usually employ lies that are very elaborate and often highly technical. If you aren't ready with a specific response, it will often come down to a creationist saying "evolution is false for stupid reason X," and you saying "that's absurd." Of course you're right, but that won't help you convince anyone that you're correct. The talkorigins archive is a great reference for brushing up on specific creationist claims so that you can be ready with your answers when the creationists raise them. Remember, it's not just about being right; it's about being able to effectively convince people that you're right. You may well be an expert on evolution, but what if a creationist makes some sort of bizarre claim about scientific proof that the sun is only 10,000 years old? Simply saying "that's retarded, everyone knows that the sun is much older than that" won't necessarily convince anyone. Of course if you're such a science ninja that you can debunk any creationist claim on the spot, then more power to you.

About teachers:
I think a big part of the problem is that the education system for training teachers in the US is entirely centered around techniques for effective teaching – how to present ideas to children so that they'll understand them, techniques for helping your students remember things, etc. There's no real emphasis on WHAT you should be teaching your students with your expansive knowledge of modern education techniques.

It's been a long time since I was in elementary school, but I can distinctly remember an otherwise normal elementary school teacher spending about an hour trying to warn us about the dangers of the electromagnetic fields that are generated by household appliances. School teachers aren't any more scientific, rational, or reasonable than anyone else. They're just people who know how to convey information to children.
 
Nasor said:
I can distinctly remember an otherwise normal elementary school teacher spending about an hour trying to warn us about the dangers of the electromagnetic fields that are generated by household appliances.
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You mean like toasters and blenders? LOL!
 
If you aren't ready with a specific response, it will often come down to a creationist saying "evolution is false for stupid reason X," and you saying "that's absurd." Of course you're right, but that won't help you convince anyone that you're correct.
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Thanks Nasor. That's what I was trying to say ;)
I remember a certain debate between Gish and an evolutionist, where Gish claimed that the sun was shrinking. Of course, that's absurd, however... the evolutionist wasn't a great public speaker, and Gish was (actually, Gish is quite charismatic).

Whenever you are trying to correct a teacher, make sure you sound confident, and make yourself clear. Also, back yourself up with evidence and references...
 
Nasor said:
You misunderstand.
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you've misunderstood my point of posting this announcement from Dr. Conner, the point of starting this thread and what i percieve to be the problem.

spurious and idlemind saw right away.

i don't argue with creationists, i don't care what they believe nor why. i've long ago stopped doing other people's thinking for them.

the problem is that creationism is not science and should not be taught as such, particularly in a public and (supposedly) secular classroom.

going to anti-creationist websites and formulating arguments against creationist ideas may be informative, but will not affect the problem.

this is primarily because people (i.e. these teachers in this case) are gonna believe what they want and these beliefs are unassailable by science or anything else except for divine intervention (and maybe not even that).

the answer is to somehow prevent them, by a strictly enforced law perhaps, from teaching any form of religion as science.

these creationists are like Flat-Earthers. we don't go about formulating scientific arguments debunking flat-earth beliefs and supporting a spherical earth. it's futile and a waste of time. but we do prevent them from teaching flat-earth hypotheses as alternatives to spherical earth hypotheses.

this is how creationism should be dealt with.
 
you've misunderstood my point of posting this announcement from Dr. Conner, the point of starting this thread and what i percieve to be the problem.

spurious and idlemind saw right away.
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paul, I am sorry if I haven't been too clear. Nasor and myself never claimed that you were debating Creationists directly.

However, when you are trying to convince teachers that Creationism is just religion, and is a 'theory' with no evidence, you will undoubtly encounter them using Creationist arguments that they have haerd to question evolution. For instance, they will show that video 'Evolution... Fact or Belief', and then say "Yeah, but that's very convincing, can you refute it? I can't teach evolution if this is true."

In otherwords, you WILL be arguing against Creationists, just indirectly.

When you are trying to ban Creationism from being taught, I have no doubt that you will encounter the typical Creationist arguments "Yeah, but evolution is a religion too", or "Yeah, but Creationism has more evidence then evolution".

Trust me. If you're going to try and ban Creationism from classrooms, you are going to encounter quite a few Creationist arguments against evolution. It's a fact, and you must be prepared to correct misconceptions and flawed attacks against evolution.

Also, at the moment, most places in America have banned the teaching of Creationism. However, Creationists try to sneak into the 'Board of Studies' (Ug, I don't know what it's called in America!) and change the school course curricullum (sp?) to include Creationism, and/or limit the teaching of evolution.

It is these 'sneak attacks' that we must keep a watch for.
 
mountainhare said:
paul, I am sorry if I haven't been too clear. Nasor and myself never claimed that you were debating Creationists directly.

However, when you are trying to convince teachers
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Jeez, it's like talking to a brick wall! Are you doing this on purpose for a laugh?

You've contradicted your 2nd sentence with your 3rd.

HELLO??!! I'M NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE!!!!!!!!!

I'm merely trying to prevent.


mountainhare said:
Also, at the moment, most places in America have banned the teaching of Creationism. However, Creationists try to sneak into the 'Board of Studies' (Ug, I don't know what it's called in America!) and change the school course curricullum (sp?) to include Creationism, and/or limit the teaching of evolution.

It is these 'sneak attacks' that we must keep a watch for.
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This is my point!

Now, how is going to anti-creationist websites and formulating anti-creationist arguments gonna help with this? I don't see it, cause the people trying to sneak it in are already convinced and I'm not trying to persuade them, I'm trying to prevent them.

Did you read my flat-earthers analogy. If yes, then please re-read it cause it describes my position perfectly.

I won't be posting on this thread anymore, I've said all I can on the subject.
 
Precisely why I've given up my days as a crusading anti-Creationist. They never come up with anything new, and they never know when they've lost an academic argument. I've heard even better lines than "The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is false!!". I mean, sure, Einstein did his best to prove that, but to no avail ... :bugeye:

I guess I'm just slowly getting older. I don't feel the desire to correct every wrong claim people make anymore.

-- Long live the Female Messiah!
 
I guess I'm just slowly getting older. I don't feel the desire to correct every wrong claim people make anymore.
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You're getting older, and wiser. :)
Sometimes, it is better to just hold your tongue, and not waste your precious time.
People believe what they want to believe.
 
I have spend more then my fair hsare attacking creationist to no avail, one thing I have learned is that many people will never listen or change their beliefs not matter how much your try to reason with them.

As for creationist teachers I think they should not be allowed in public schools, in fact killing them on site does not sound all that unreasonable to me.
 
WellCookedFetus said:
As for creationist teachers I think they should not be allowed in public schools, in fact killing them on site does not sound all that unreasonable to me.
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if I am allowed i would like to make an addendum:

Just make sure that there is an creationist audience present, so that they may learn a lesson!
 
As for creationist teachers I think they should not be allowed in public schools, in fact killing them on site does not sound all that unreasonable to me.
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YIKES!
And make them maytr's???

What are you thinking, man? *slaps wcf*
 
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