could you convince

fahrenheit 451 said:
yes it would be fair to assume that, as we do create, care, and want.
Click to expand...

Ok! Moving along:

PROPOSITION#2: Based on Assertions #2 & #3, we have not found any
defects to date in the structure of reality (i.e. it's of high quality) and
humans (life) are a result of a reality-bound process (a thing) that we
call evolution. Both the process and life are not necessarily flawless but
are of pretty good overall quality.

Let me know your thoughts on this.
 
I'm way late into joining this argument, but I only joined these forums yesterday, so you'll have to forgive my impertinence ;)

Is not reality a human creation? Therefore, are we even able to perceive the notion or possibility of another reality? And doesn't this seem to be backed up by those humans which aren't considered normal as they experience a different reality to the rest of us 'normal' ones.

I don't know where I'm going with that or if it even makes sense, or if I'm even considering the same 'reality' as you.

staples disconnected
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Ok! Moving along:

PROPOSITION#2: Based on Assertions #2 & #3, we have not found any
defects to date in the structure of reality (i.e. it's of high quality) and
humans (life) are a result of a reality-bound process (a thing) that we
call evolution. Both the process and life are not necessarily flawless but
are of pretty good overall quality.

Let me know your thoughts on this.
Click to expand...
yes it would be fair to assume that
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
could anybody convince me, of a god/gods, without using the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah, the book of Mormon, the Vegas. infact no scriptures, no holy books, just plain talk, you can use history, you can use geography, any subject except religious teaching. I am open minded.
I promise to follow a god if your successfull.
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Well one thing that as always got me thinking is the subject of Morals. If I give you an instance mentioned by C.S. Lewis. He talked about an example where you hear a man drowning. Your survivial instinct might tell you to leave him as it is dangerous to yourself. Your herding instinct might tell you to try and save him as he is one of your kind. Which one do you listen to. C.S. Lewis mentions the possibilty of a third thing that tells you which one you need to listen to and that one is the right course of action. What this third thing also allows you to do is to overcome your stronger instinct (in this example it might be the survival one to help the man). What is this third thing that tells you for certain what is right or wrong and where does it come from? Food for thought.........

Another interesting concept is the earth it self. I could go into all the science of how seemingly unique we are but there are better authors out there for that. But also how well positioned we are to actually find out about ourselves, in the solar system, galaxy and universe. We have a very unrestricted view of the universe around us. Chance or deliberate? Also it seems very interesting to me that the geological formation of the earth has formed in such a way to make useful natural resources available to us just below the surface.....chance or deliberate? More food for thought.
 
Silvertusk said:
Well one thing that as always got me thinking is the subject of Morals. If I give you an instance mentioned by C.S. Lewis. He talked about an example where you hear a man drowning. Your survivial instinct might tell you to leave him as it is dangerous to yourself. Your herding instinct might tell you to try and save him as he is one of your kind. Which one do you listen to. C.S. Lewis mentions the possibilty of a third thing that tells you which one you need to listen to and that one is the right course of action. What this third thing also allows you to do is to overcome your stronger instinct (in this example it might be the survival one to help the man). What is this third thing that tells you for certain what is right or wrong and where does it come from? Food for thought
Click to expand...
no food for thought here.
morals are inherent to man's nature, morals have nothing to do with a god or religion, how are morals going to convince, anyone of a god.
sorry to burst your bubble.
Silvertusk said:
Another interesting concept is the earth it self. I could go into all the science of how seemingly unique we are but there are better authors out there for that. But also how well positioned we are to actually find out about ourselves, in the solar system, galaxy and universe. We have a very unrestricted view of the universe around us. Chance or deliberate? Also it seems very interesting to me that the geological formation of the earth has formed in such a way to make useful natural resources available to us just below the surface.....chance or deliberate? More food for thought.
Click to expand...
no food for thought here also, theres nothing to say god did it unless you wish to travel in the land of make believe.
there is a debate about this at the moment on this forum, evolution can be seen, where creation is just baseless asumption.
though I thank you for your effort, however I feel it was wasted.
there is nothing to convince, is there.
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
no food for thought here.
morals are inherent to man's nature, morals have nothing to do with a god or religion, how are morals going to convince, anyone of a god.
sorry to burst your bubble.
no food for thought here also, theres nothing to say god did it unless you wish to travel in the land of make believe.
there is a debate about this at the moment on this forum, evolution can be seen, where creation is just baseless asumption.
though I thank you for your effort, however I feel it was wasted.
there is nothing to convince, is there.
Click to expand...

That is a fair comment. But too be honest the answer to your question at the beginning of this thread is...No. I respect the fact that you said have an open mind - but it will take a answer of divine intervention to convince you. Something which a forum is hardly the grounds for that to happen. I think it needs something much more real life to happen for you to be convinced. I could give you a testimony of someone who for instance was told he was certain to die, yet the next day was miraculously cured and yet you would still not believe because you didn't experience it for yourself. Somewhere along the line you need to take that final leap of faith and trust someones words. I don't feel that is going to happen here. Even though you presented a very interesting challenge I am certainly not up to it.

You say mans morals are inherent to his nature, I say there is something that defines them. I can't prove it, neither can you prove your statement. Where do we go for here. You see my point. You have given us....well certainly me.. an impossible task. I conceed defeat.
 
"When all other causes of events are eliminated - only then will I turn to the impossible."
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
yes it would be fair to assume that
Click to expand...

Thanks fahrenheit, sorry for the late response. This thread was on my
to-do list and I waited a little long (my bad)... I consequentially lost
my train of thought on this one and I'll try to pick up as best as I can.

PROPOSITION #3: Based on Proposition's 1 & 2, we have evidence of the
following:

* Life can create life.
* Life can create things.
* Things can create life.
* Things can create things.
* Reality is a 'thing'.
* The 'thing' that resulted in humans today is a process we call 'evolution'.
* Evolution is a 'thing' created by reality.

Let me know your thoughts on this (and again I apologize for the delay).
 
ellion said:
matter is only energy in motion. the dilemma could be more easily resolved by answering the question; what was the first cause of movement?
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If matter is only energy in motion, then what is energy?

What was the first cause of movement? Welll, here is my answer: movement is the substance of all, and it needs no first cause. Causes are part of the linear idea of time, and time is the act of timing. If we remove the act of timing from the equation, what is left? An undivided wholeness.

But then, if all is undivided wholeness, why do there appear to be "things?" I think the reason is this: in order for movement to be movement, there must be difference. Difference enables movement. And in order for there to be difference, there must be relationship. But in order for there to be relationship, there must be difference.

So what we can see is a kind of eternal structure in which there is a continuous generation of difference and then relation, which enables different difference to emerge, and so new relation, etc. etc., all of which enables movement. Another word for that continuous shifting between difference and relation, producing new wholes, is evolution. And as the late biologist and physician Jonas Salk once told me, "God is Evolution and Evolution is God."

So in other words: the journey is the destination.
 
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