Conversions

[one_raven]

For someone to hold that his opinion is the only truly rational and "sane" position to have is truly the deluded, close-minded and irrational one.

I'm not a Theist, by the way.

Simply because YOU can not see a rational reason to START believing in God, that does not mean it is not possible.
Just because you do not believe in God, that does not mean that it is impossible that God exists.
What if an Atheist comes to a relaization that he was *gasp!!* incorrect?
Is that fathomable? An Atheist being incorrect?
As difficult as it may be for you to imagine, geeser, I am saying that it actually is possible that you could be wrong. Pompous ass.

Damn, geeser, you follow your Atheism with a zeal that would make religious folk jealous.

 

[dr. cello]

thank you, Raven. quite well put.

an atheist with an irrational reason:

'the Christian church was mean to me, so God doesn't exist.'
'i was raised to be an atheist.'
a baby is an atheist. babies default to it until they are told that God exists.

i have met some very rational christians. they are rare, but so are truly rational atheists. a rational man is -rare-. and as i noted previously, nobody believes themselves to be irrational. or at least, very few people. apparently the atheist came to the conclusion that there was, in fact, proof for God.

here's a hint: you know all those 'proofs of God's existence' out there? not everyone thinks they are nonsensical. and the arguments against them are not utterly irrefutable.

also, CS Lewis, famous Christian author, notoriously was at one point an atheist. i'm sure you can google the story if you care. i may not agree with a lot of what he has to say anymore, but i do believe that he was a rational man who was at least worthy of respect (and he was not lying about his atheism.)

being misled is not the same as being irrational. i have convinced people unintentionally through my spelling and word choice that i'm from the UK; i do not believe them irrational for it. how much easier is it for someone who is actively trying to be convincing to mislead somebody (even if he does not believe it to be misleading)? especially if there is an open mind, or an emotional weak point, or if the atheist finds one of the arguments for god's existence convincing. it's amazing how much one argument can accomplish. it changes your stance on all the others.

 

[the preacher]

people may have believed they were an atheist, but perhaps they misunderstood what it was to be truly atheist, I can see where geeser coming from, I dont thing he's being Pompous, he actually stated that he could'nt be 100% sure on anything, he's only seems to be telling it like it is, as you say dr cello, they could have been misled that they were an atheist. what would change you and raven to become believers?
what would make you change right now, what earthly reason could change your mind?

 

[dr. cello]

if i knew that i already would have changed my mind.

i'm saying that they could have been deceived into becoming a religious person, -not- into thinking that they are an atheist. one of the few things that we do know is what we believed. you're making a lot of assumptions about what an atheist is. you're making the assumption that atheist immediately comes with the credentials 'pompous git' and 'supremely rational being'. neither of these is the case. i have met some very, very stupid atheists before. and they were, by definition, atheists: someone who does not believe in god. don't tell people they don't know what they believed. it's as silly as christians telling people that they weren't -really- christians because they turned away--only moreso, because atheists usually trumpet themselves as open-minded, rational people. you and geeser are demonstrating quite the opposite.

nobody who believes knows every argument against what they believe, nor do they know specifically what argument might convert them. a genuinely open-minded individual, when presented with an argument that he cannot refute, will accept that argument as valid and rational, rather than withdrawing and saying 'i'll refute that later because i know you're wrong i just don't know why yet.'

 

[marv]

When I was 17, I picked up a book, read it, and decided that what I had read was correct. I've been an atheist ever since. That was 49 years ago.

It's not "conversion" though. Atheism isn't a belief system that one is "converted" to. The term "conversion" applies to all of the other permutations of belief system changes as well as the change from atheism to some formal belief system. But not when rejecting religion.

So I didn't vote.

 

[MarcAC]

10 years ago I was a theist, now I'm a Christian.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: I came to sciforums after 15+ years as a recovering Catholic, with the understanding that Jesus couldn't have died; he was probably married to Mary Magdalen; they had children; and, their descendants may be alive and well today. I read all the books on the mystery of Rennes-le-Chateau I could find. However, I came to sciforums discounting Christianity as a false doctrine, yet still believing in a generic soul and spirit. It didn't take that long to realize that I was just barking up that same old theist-indoctrination tree. The more I read from members like Jenyar, the more obvious it was to me that people create their own image of god in their minds. The concepts of soul and spirit are just that -- concepts. They are not real. We create these concepts, because we hope for an afterlife. Most of us are not ready to admit this life is all we've got. I knew I could not believe in the god of Jenyar nor the god of SouthStar nor the god of Woody. And just when I was having a field day tormenting SouthStar for his Christian beliefs, he saw the light!

As for Christians, you can talk to them up to a point, but when they reach that point, there's no going beyond it. Their minds just cannot comprehend what we already know, what we've learned, and what we understand to be the truth. Their desire to believe in a fantasy prevails even up to a point where they know for a fact, although they've never seen, Egyptian chariot wheels litter the depths of the Red Sea! That's when myths become realities for those of child-like mind, to include Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and most important of all next to Jesus, the Tooth Fairy!

My progression to atheism didn't occur overnight. It took years and years to come to that knowing. I didn't reach this understanding from other atheists as one might think, Christians taught me everything I needed to know about Christianity! No, I won't be looking for any Egyptian chariot wheels in the Red Sea nor will I be seeing heaven nor hell. There's no way we could have a life beyond what we already have. If that were the case, we could fuck-off for 70 or so years and wait for this supposed afterlife to do the good we should have already been doing when we had our chance.

There is no soul and there is no spirit. What we do have is a bioelectric energy field that "lights us up" while we're alive. When it's time for us to go, the "light" goes out. Believing in a god is false. There is no master planner of the universe. What you see is what you get. The only truth there is, is that there is no god, no superman, no sky daddy, no heaven and no hell. If you believe this, then you are wasting your life on fantasies. At some point, everyone will wake up and realize that they've been duped all along. There is no eternity for us, but there is eternity for life in the universe. Is that so bad? We've all been given a certain amount of time. Will you use it believing in fantasy or will you use your time to make a difference?

I've just been diagnosed with end-stage congestive heart failure, so I know my time is limited. I also know there is nowhere I'm going to at the end. I will use what time I have left to take my stand against the lies of Christianity. I won't change the world, but at least I will leave knowing the truth I found on sciforums, and maybe, just maybe, I will help make a Christian think about the lies they've been vaccinated with. Maybe I will be the one to free them from their religious prison.

 

[MarcAC]

What you see is what you get.

I've never seen a quark - although their existence, according to physical science, is fundamental to mine.

The effects of quarks can be observed - that's how they're "seen". God's works can be observed, that's how He's "seen". If you look with your eyes alone you will only get what you see. If you look with your heart and mind you might "see" a bit more. Christians "see" God - what they "see" is what they get.

Each to his own way...

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I've never seen a quark - although their existence, according to physical science, is fundamental to mine.

The effects of quarks can be observed - that's how they're "seen". God's works can be observed, that's how He's "seen". If you look with your eyes alone you will only get what you see. If you look with your heart and mind you might "see" a bit more. Christians "see" God - what they "see" is what they get.

Each to his own way...

*************
M*W: I've never seen a quark and, even if they do exist, it doesn't matter to me. I wouldn't have been looking for one anyway. But there was a time when I truly believed I could see god's work with my heart and mind, only to find out I was naive and wrong because there is no such thing as "god's work." For Christians who believe they can "see" god are only deluding themselves and perpetuating the beliefs of others who feed on that same fantasy. Facing reality is wiser by far.

 

[James R]

Medicine Woman:

I've just been diagnosed with end-stage congestive heart failure, so I know my time is limited.

I'm really sorry to hear that.

I also know there is nowhere I'm going to at the end.

Personally, I think the important thing is what you've done in your life, and the most important thing about that is the effect you've had on other people. If you're really going nowhere after death, you will still live on the hearts and minds of the people who have known you.

I will use what time I have left to take my stand against the lies of Christianity. I won't change the world, but at least I will leave knowing the truth I found on sciforums, and maybe, just maybe, I will help make a Christian think about the lies they've been vaccinated with. Maybe I will be the one to free them from their religious prison.

Regarding discussions on all topics on forums, religion perhaps most of all, my opinion is that people will NEVER admit to being swayed by your arguments - on anything! But, you plant the seeds, and six months or 5 years down the track those same people might have a completely different view from the one they steadfastly defended in the forum discussion. People feel threatened when you challenge their deeply-held beliefs. Sometimes they just turn away and refuse to even look at another point of view. But sometimes, ideas gradually worm their way in, until eventually they change their mind. Then, they usually decide that they changed their mind on their own, rather than because of anything specific that somebody else told them. But we know better, don't we?

 

[Hapsburg]

I've been athiest all me life, and shall remain so 'till death!

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Medicine Woman:

I'm really sorry to hear that.

Personally, I think the important thing is what you've done in your life, and the most important thing about that is the effect you've had on other people. If you're really going nowhere after death, you will still live on the hearts and minds of the people who have known you.

Regarding discussions on all topics on forums, religion perhaps most of all, my opinion is that people will NEVER admit to being swayed by your arguments - on anything! But, you plant the seeds, and six months or 5 years down the track those same people might have a completely different view from the one they steadfastly defended in the forum discussion. People feel threatened when you challenge their deeply-held beliefs. Sometimes they just turn away and refuse to even look at another point of view. But sometimes, ideas gradually worm their way in, until eventually they change their mind. Then, they usually decide that they changed their mind on their own, rather than because of anything specific that somebody else told them. But we know better, don't we?

*************
M*W: Thanks, James. You're right. I certainly don't expect accolades for helping the blind to see. I know that most Christians will vehemently decry what I say, but there may be one or two who listen and learn. It's worth my time.

 

[stretched]

Quote MW:
"I've just been diagnosed with end-stage congestive heart failure, so I know my time is limited."

* I am extremely sad to hear that MW. My very best wishes to you.

 

[mustafhakofi]

i'm saying that they could have been deceived into becoming a religious person, -not- into thinking that they are an atheist. one of the few things that we do know is what we believed.

I posted this information on a thread sometime ago.


Number of adherents of world religions:

According to David Barrett et al, editors of the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200," there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and many smaller ones. 34,000 separate Christian groups have been identified in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations." Most people in the world follow one of the religions listed in the table below. Included is the name of the religion, the approximate date of its origin, its main sacred or ethical texts (if any) and its estimated numerical strength (both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of the world's population.)

These data are based on census or public opinion data. Thus, a person is considered to be of a particular religion if they say that they are of that faith. Thus, about 75% of the adults in both the U.S. and Canada are Christians. Many individuals and religious groups have much more strict definitions for membership. Many conservative Christians believe that one has to be "born again" in order to be counted as a Christian. Using this definition, only about 35% of Americans would be counted as Christians. This difference in definitions between conservative Christians and the rest of the population causes much confusion. Some of the approximately 1,000 Christian faith groups in the U.S. and Canada believe themselves to be the only true Christian denomination. Thus, depending on the definition used, the percentage of Christians in the U.S. are 0.1 to 75% of the total population.

Basic information on various religions:

Religion Date Founded Sacred Texts Membership % of World

Christianity 30 CE The Bible 2,015 million 33% (dropping)
Islam 622 CE Qur'an & Hadith 1,215 million 20% (dropping)
No religion * No date None 925 million 15% (growing)
Hinduism 1,500 BCE The Veda 786 million 13% (stable)
Buddhism 523 BCE The Tripitaka 362 million 6% (stable)
Atheists No date None 211 million 4% (growing)
Chinese folk rel. 270 BCE None 188 million 4%
new Asian rel. Various Various 106 million 2%
Tribal, Animism prehistory Oral tradition 91 million 2%
Other Various Various 19 million <1%
Judaism No consensus Torah, Talmud 18 million <1%
Sikhism 1500 CE Guru Granth Sahib 16 million <1%
Shamanists Prehistory Oral Tradition 12 million <1%
Spiritism 7 million <1%
Confucianism 520 BCE Lun Yu 5 million <1%
Baha'i Faith 1863 CE Most Holy Book 4 million <1%
Jainism 570 BCE Siddhanta, Pakrit 3 million <1%
Shinto 500 CE Kojiki,Nohon Shoki3 million <1%
Wicca 800 BCE,1940 CE None 500,000? <1%
Zoroastrianism No consensus Avesta 0.2 million <1%

Notes:
* Persons with no religion, agnostics, freethinkers, humanists, secularists, etc.
We have included Wicca even though their numbers are small because such a large percentage of our site's visitors are of that faith.
We have included Zoroastrianism even though they are small in numbers, because of the immense role that the religion has played throughout history.
the point I'd, like to make is there are a lot of people out there who are unbelievers sorry non-believers, who once converted will refer to themselves as an ex-atheist because they associate non-believer with atheism, but they could have been any number of things other than atheist, and had not really known it, but they needed to give it a label and atheism is as good as any other, for instance when if ever, have you heard a theist say the used to be an agnostic, freethinker, humanist, secularist, etc.
they only ever say they were atheist, dont they.

addendum

there are 34,000 different sects of christianity, all calling themselves christian, they cant all be right, so it is a reasonable assumption to say that not all aledge ex-atheist were really atheist, does'nt it.
so as atheism is classed separately from non-believers, we can say it is extremely unlikely they were ever atheist, more likely something else.


this is now the whole article see here http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=45167

 

[KennyJC]

I wonder how valid that chart is. I would officially be classed as a christian/catholic due to my education, but am athiest/non religious

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

What I find most interesting about so many of these discussions is the use of the term "know."

 

[Jenyar]

Sorry to interrupt...

there are 34,000 different sects of christianity, all calling themselves christian...

30,000 Protestant Denominations?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Been more than 10 since I became an atheist or should I say went back to where I started in this life.

 

[dr. cello]

that was a lot of statistics to prove absolutely nothing. yes, some people associate 'atheist' with 'unbeliever'. so?

and to answer your question, yes. i have met theists who have claimed to be former agnostics. 'former freethinker' is not something you will hear, because that implies that your thoughts are no longer free. former humanist, sure. secularist is a label i've never really even heard before.

believe me, religious people know the difference. i sure did when i was religious. and you miss the point that everyone is born an atheist, by default. only if you're defining atheist in a positive sense (note that the word is a negative form of theist) can you avoid this truth, and if you're doing that, then you're telling most atheists that they are not, in fact, atheists.

furthermore, your statements seem to rely on the assumption that someone cannot go from a belief that they believe to be rational to one that they once believed to be irrational. in essence you are stating that any religious conversion, apart from the undecideds, is impossible. either that, or you are claiming absolute knowledge of all arguments, rational and irrational, in support of or opposition to religious belief that are inherently possible, and claiming that all atheists similarly know all of these arguments, and are therefore incapable of being swayed by them, because they know and have discounted them already.

either way, you're making claims which border on lunacy.

 

[alain]

i used to be christian, but i kept on changing my beliefs about God when i found faults in Christianity, now i dont believe anything rom the bible.

but it has nothing to do with living in an "age of terrorism"