Consensual sex? Or rape by deception.. A disturbing case..

[Doreen]

It is a legal matter when someone, in good faith, agrees to a transaction, and it later turns out that the other party deceived them. This is a standard pattern for fraud.

Suppose you, in good faith, buy a used car from someone, and it later turns out that the car was stolen and that the seller knew it was stolen but didn't tell you.

But note, in this analogy
it turns out he was an Arab
is the equivalent of
it turns out the car was stolen.

When one buys a car it is a given one will have clear ownership.
When one has sex shall we presume racism/religionism, especially given the sexual activity as presented?

 

[wynn]

When one has sex shall we presume racism/religionism, especially given the sexual activity as presented?

This is why I asked:
By Israel law, how are relationships (of any kind) between Arabs and Israelis defined?
Do they have a kind of Apartheid?

 

[pjdude1219]

If I'm not mistaken he lied to her in order to get her to have sex with him, is that correct..? That is not a cool thing to do. I don't think it's worthy of prosecution, but it is not a cool thing to do.

what he lie about. it implies at least from what i read that she never asked if he was jewish she just assumed so.

 

[Doreen]

This is why I asked:
By Israel law, how are relationships (of any kind) between Arabs and Israelis defined?
Do they have a kind of Apartheid?

Ah, I see. And yes is clearly the answer. I doubt that a court would even look at that case in the US. A marriage based on such a situation, perhaps, certainly a civil case. A one night stand cannot be considered rape because someone thought the race or religion of the other person was something else.
Tough luck.
To respect her there is to say that one's racism is a valid criterion that needs to be protected by the law.

 

[S.A.M.]

Has anyone read "A Time to Kill"? Apropos the final chapter, just close your eyes and imagine a Jewish guy in Europe being convicted of rape for failing to disclose that he is Jewish to his non-Jewish partner in a one night stand.

I wonder what Israelis would say to that.

 

[Bells]

If I'm not mistaken he lied to her in order to get her to have sex with him, is that correct..? That is not a cool thing to do. I don't think it's worthy of prosecution, but it is not a cool thing to do.

Lying to get someone to have sex with you - more to the point - saying you're single and not disclosing that you are in fact an Arab - that should not be tantamount to rape.

We aren't talking about this guy being charged with fraud here. But rape. I am not sure about the Israeli legal system, but if this were to occur in the US or Australia, for example (if our legal system imploded and allowed such a charge to stand and the judges were zombies and found him guilty), he would end up on the sex offenders list.

What we have is a woman who approached a guy on the street, they chatted each other up and went to a quiet spot (apparently an abandoned building) and had sex. In short, they went and had a quick fuck and then went their own way. How the courts could construe that as her desire to start a relationship, I still don't know. But to say that his being an Arab somehow went against the sanctity of her body and soul.. Err what?

It is a legal matter when someone, in good faith, agrees to a transaction, and it later turns out that the other party deceived them. This is a standard pattern for fraud.

How was she deceived that it qualified as a rape? He was an Arab and therefore she and the Israeli legal system considers it to be rape? But if he was Jewish it would not be rape?

We're not talking about buying a car that turns out to be a lemon here. We are talking about two adults consenting to have sex and then one crying rape because the other was an Arab and the legal system allowing her to do it. The DA agreed that the act of sex was consensual. But because he was an Arab and did not disclose that to her - because one has to disclose one's religion and nationality to not be a rapist in Israel - the court has found that he raped her.

Let me put it this way. Lets say you move to Israel. Meet a girl and after a few weeks, you tell her you love her so she'd have sex with you. You don't really love her, but it's been a few weeks and you think 'meh what the hell'. A month or so later you separate and she realises you didn't love her and she goes to the police and says you raped her because she had sex with you because she thought you loved her, but you did not.

To respect her there is to say that one's racism is a valid criterion that needs to be protected by the law.

Bingo!

You've hit the nail on the head.

This case is basically a validation of racism. And it was done with this one line:

"If she had not thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious relationship, she would not have co-operated."

 

[S.A.M.]

We aren't talking about this guy being charged with fraud here. But rape.

Yup, exactly.

What do you think of this?

In the past, men who misrepresented themselves in this way were convicted of fraud.

One such case was that of Eran Ben-Avraham, who told a woman he was a neurosurgeon after which she had sex with him, and was convicted of three counts of fraud.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-conviction-sets-dangerous-precedent-1.303109

If a woman has breast implants and doesn't disclose it, is that misrepresentation? If a man lies about his age, occupation, race, is it fraud?

 

[Doreen]

If a woman has breast implants and doesn't disclose it, is that misrepresentation? If a man lies about his age, occupation, race, is it fraud?

Nope. I mean, we are talking about a one night stand. Did they have sex?

Yup.

Thus he satisfied the terms of the verbal contract, if there was one.

The court is assuming that a Jew having sex with an Arab is bad. Just as getting a stolen car is bad and hence fraud.

If I sell you a car that I had blessed by an Imam and you find out about this later, good luck in most courts saying the sale was fraudulant.

Though in Israel who knows?

And where is it written in a Jewish religious text that when one has semi-public sex with a stranger, it should not be an ARab?

 

[Doreen]

"If she had not thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious relationship, she would not have co-operated."

I love this quote, down to the hilariously neutral and distant 'co-operated'. How generous! He wanted to put his penis in me and I co-operated by being really horny myself and raising my pelvis. I mean, come on.

And note how even her definition will make thousands, if not millions, of Jewish Bachelors rapists sooner or later. Yeah, they all want serious relationships.

Imagine in the US claiming you were raped because the person you thought was white was actually a light skinned black (who didn't want a serious relationship). I am sure this would have qualified as rape even up to the 60s in some parts of the US, but now, no court would take that case.

I still want to keep pointing out how rape has been radically redefined in a way that means men can be regularly and in widespread instances be raped by women.

I also want to re-emphasize a rape that you are conscious during and consider consensual.

I wonder if one can claim after a marriage that the man did not really take the marriage seriously - say he cheated on her or stayed out late every night - and therefore it was not consensual sex, it was rape. I thought he was serious about marriage but he wasn't. He said he was. It was fraud it was rape.

I could see, perhaps, someone starting a civil suit if they had explained they only wanted to have sex with someone where there was a chance it would lead to marriage and because of their religion they would only marry a Jew - though even this leaves open the option of conversion.

She should take a lawyer out with her whenever she's 'on the town' and have a carefullly explained contract signed before intercourse.

 

[Bells]

You know, I find it annoying that this case is so ridiculous that it is funny. We have a real man who has been found guilty of rape, when he did not rape anyone. The DA acknowledged he didn't rape anyone - by the pure definition of rape (sex without consent). Instead, he had been charged with rape solely because he is an Arab and goes by the nickname of "Dudu".

What's going to be next?

I mean, how much more ridiculous does this have to get?

We have a woman who approached a man, and after a 15 minute conversation, both agreed to simply fuck (which the court interpreted as the intention to start a relationship). And if he was a Jew, it would have been that.. just a quick fuck. But because she later found out he was an Arab? It's rape.

The whole thing is ridiculous. It would be absolutely hilarious if this wasn't so pathetic. It's pathetic because this isn't in a cheesy tv soap. It's pathetic because this is actually happening to someone and this man could find himself being jailed for 18 months (after 2 years of house arrest) because he is an Arab who had sex with a Jew and did not disclose his ethnicity immediately (who does that anyway?). The whole thing of meeting some random stranger on a street, and then going to a deserted building to have sex - so the court expected him to disclose that he was not Jewish - because it was vital to her having sex with him in that situation? That mattered? She thought he was attractive enough to want a quicky out back with him, to the point where she faciliated and cooperated to ensusre it happened...

He was an idiot. But the bigger idiot is the Israeli legal system that allowed this to even get to court and then find him guilty for it.

What's going to be next? Maybe the Israeli Government will suggest all non-Jewish Arabs wear a crescent moon embroided on their clothing to make sure that everyone knows they are not Jewish - to avoid being charged with rape for not disclosing their ethnicity and race - because apparently, one needs to do that in Israel if one does not want to be accused of rape from now on.

 

[Doreen]

You know, I find it annoying that this case is so ridiculous that it is funny. We have a real man who has been found guilty of rape, when he did not rape anyone. The DA acknowledged he didn't rape anyone - by the pure definition of rape (sex without consent). Instead, he had been charged with rape solely because he is an Arab and goes by the nickname of "Dudu".

What's going to be next?

I mean, how much more ridiculous does this have to get?

We have a woman who approached a man, and after a 15 minute conversation, both agreed to simply fuck (which the court interpreted as the intention to start a relationship). And if he was a Jew, it would have been that.. just a quick fuck. But because she later found out he was an Arab? It's rape.

The whole thing is ridiculous. It would be absolutely hilarious if this wasn't so pathetic. It's pathetic because this isn't in a cheesy tv soap. It's pathetic because this is actually happening to someone and this man could find himself being jailed for 18 months (after 2 years of house arrest) because he is an Arab who had sex with a Jew and did not disclose his ethnicity immediately (who does that anyway?). The whole thing of meeting some random stranger on a street, and then going to a deserted building to have sex - so the court expected him to disclose that he was not Jewish - because it was vital to her having sex with him in that situation? That mattered? She thought he was attractive enough to want a quicky out back with him, to the point where she faciliated and cooperated to ensusre it happened...

He was an idiot. But the bigger idiot is the Israeli legal system that allowed this to even get to court and then find him guilty for it.

What's going to be next? Maybe the Israeli Government will suggest all non-Jewish Arabs wear a crescent moon embroided on their clothing to make sure that everyone knows they are not Jewish - to avoid being charged with rape for not disclosing their ethnicity and race - because apparently, one needs to do that in Israel if one does not want to be accused of rape from now on.

Agreed.

Can an Arab order a product from a Jewish business. Receive the product and then demand to return it - because in fact they found a cheap used one - by saying they did not realize it was a Jewish company and this is fraud where the Arab tries to get the Jewish person put in prison?

Can a jewish man who has a quickie with a very dark Sephardic Jew later claim he was raped, because he is only turned on by sex with Arabs and she did not say that despite looking like an Arab she is really a Jew?

Can a Jewish bachelor who is NOT looking for a relationship who says he wants casual sex, claim he was raped if the woman gets sad when he does not call her after sex and asks her friends to find out why and calls him a few times, and he realizes she had sex with him falsely presenting her interests as casual?


I'll bet there are many, many more reductio ad absurdi one could work out from this ludicrous ruling.

 

[Doreen]

I hope resident muslims and christians figure out dozens of ways to abuse this precedent.

But, it's a McDonald's. I assumed the management was from Scotland. I never would have eaten burgers prepared by Jews. I feel gastrointestinally raped - though I enjoyed the burger when I ate it - and want Fred Nussbaum - the Jew who prepared my hamburger to be placed in prison.

 

[IamJoseph]

the Jew who prepared my hamburger to be placed in prison.[/I]

This is fine if you merited to be a judge. A court case in Canada some years ago brought a big action to ban kosher slaughter - bringing an array of professors to the hearing. They lost and had to pay all costs. There is no better way of slaughter in the world than the kosher method.

"ALL' animal rights laws come from the Hebrew bible - exclusively.

 

[Doreen]

This is fine if you merited to be a judge. A court case in Canada some years ago brought a big action to ban kosher slaughter - bringing an array of professors to the hearing. They lost and had to pay all costs. There is no better way of slaughter in the world than the kosher method.

Not better for the cows. But really, that's not the point. The woman in the OP did not complain about his lovemaking. Oh, it was terrible. A jew would have done a better job.

 

[Doreen]

"ALL' animal rights laws come from the Hebrew bible - exclusively.

Perhaps as written texts, but many non-Abrahamic groups had deep respect for animals and their treatment - native americans for example.

 

[S.A.M.]

What's going to be next? Maybe the Israeli Government will suggest all non-Jewish Arabs wear a crescent moon embroided on their clothing to make sure that everyone knows they are not Jewish - to avoid being charged with rape for not disclosing their ethnicity and race - because apparently, one needs to do that in Israel if one does not want to be accused of rape from now on.

Better yet, start a uniform, a la Chinese communism, for the much vaunted part of the population

or

 

[Doreen]

Better yet, start a uniform, a la Chinese communism, for the much vaunted part of the population

or

But these are not enough. She thought he was Jewish and had interest in a relationship. Clearly the t-shirts need to list several items. Availability, intentions, race, religion, probably more.

 

[S.A.M.]

If she thought he was Jewish and interested in a relationship, she should have made an appointment with his parents not banged his ass off in a dark alley. How did she find out he was Arab? Did she come back for round two? How the frick does one night stand say "relationship"? And what kind of legal system actually promotes this shit?

 

[Dywyddyr]

But these are not enough. She thought he was Jewish and had interest in a relationship. Clearly the t-shirts need to list several items. Availability, intentions, race, religion, probably more.

That would be an overcoat, not a T-shirt.

"Single, on the pull, not looking for more than a one night stand but hey! if it works out then... (but don't use the "C" word), prefer Indian to Chinese, CofE-ish, only poofs drink lager, etc etc..."
By the time she's finished reading it you're sober and ready to go home.

 

[S.A.M.]

That would be an overcoat, not a T-shirt.

"Single, on the pull, not looking for more than a one night stand but hey! if it works out then... (but don't use the "C" word), prefer Indian to Chinese, CofE-ish, only poofs drink lager, etc etc..."
By the time she's finished reading it you're sober and ready to go home.

Married with children, circumcised but not Jewish, real nickname Dudu, looking for quickie sex and impersonating a human. Any resemblance to Jews is coincidental and entirely unwarranted

That would work, you think?