Comparative Violence: Muslims, Christians, etc.

[DoctorNO]

Comparative Religious Violence (Muslims, Christians, etc.)

Jewish Violence

* Committed as a last resort to repossess historical homeland & as retaliation from muslim & pagan (roman) oppression.

* Most evident in the last couple of decades.

* Isolated in Palestine.


Christian Violence

* Committed out of religious zeal CONTRARY to Biblical ideals.

* Most evident at the middle history of Christianity. Generally peaceful today, as was in its inception.

* Widespread in the dark ages. Isolated cases today.


Muslim Violence

* Committed out of religious zeal IN FULFILLMENT of Quranic ideals.

* Consistent throughout the history of Islam. Starting with its war-like founder Mohammed.

* Widespread throughout history. Muslim violence can be seen in almost every region of earth today.


Hindu Violence

* Committed in specific retaliation to muslim & Christian aggression. Mostly against muslims.

* Most evident at the latter few decades of Hindu history. Historically peaceful otherwise.

* Isolated cases in India, Pakistan & Bangladesh.

 

[Tiassa]

Propaganda for three year-olds?!

(btw, I wonder what the low end of the age spectrum is here at Sciforums. I'll refrain from asking the obvious question.)

 

[Flores]

OH WHY TIASSA....WHY WHY WHY WHY???
Why did you bring this dreadfull thread up. It almost dissapeared down....

 

[DoctorNO]

Propaganda for three year-olds?!

(btw, I wonder what the low end of the age spectrum is here at Sciforums. I'll refrain from asking the obvious question.)

Perhaps you have a better analysis of religious violence? Show it to us in terms of the following

* Cause of violence, & religious implications
* Consistency relative to time
* Area of Effect.

 

[DoctorNO]

Why did I create this thread? Because it bothered me that posters were referring to religious violence as if they were all as equal in every term. They are not. There are patterns to each type of violence. So the objective of this thread is to differentiate each type violence from the other. What caused Hindus to be violent? What caused christians? What causes muslims? And jews? How is each violence related to each religious ideal?

 

[otheadp]

in dhimmi tiassa's view, there is no such thing as religious violence
in fact, there is no violence, and there are no religions
we shouldn't dehumanize anyone by calling them "religious", "violent" or "religion-inspired violent"

there is no such thing as "killing in the name of G_d" and we shouldn't even talk about it because it's not nice

it's all vile propaganda!

 

[JesusisLord51]

[long quote of previous post removed]

Kudos for clearing that up.

Don't comment, Kudos bars are good. Consider yourself lucky.

 

[Tiassa]

Dr. No:

Cause of violence, & religious implications

You'd have to read a book. Martin Reisbrödt, Pious Passions.

However, the underlying cause of violence generally starts with economic motives. Religion is merely the mask. Remember that all political struggles are class struggles.

Consistency relative to time

Symptoms and affectations of what age?

Area of Effect.

Means of measure? A million dollars fifty years ago bought you more Peeps® than a million dollars would today. Whether or not it's the same batch of Peeps® is a question that, I'm told, is up for grabs.

Likewise, changes in weapons and delivery technology change the measure of the area of effect.

Flores:

Why did you bring this dreadfull thread up. It almost dissapeared down....

I think it was a moment of nicotine-deprived weakness. I felt the need to point out the lack of useful information.

As Dr. No's response to me indicates, this is a non-topic.

Unsourced, fallacious, useless.

These kinds of topics only indicate how little Dr. No intends to get along nicely with anyone else, except perhaps a few of our more classic agit-prop anti-Islamists who are so intellectually weak that they allow the very people they hate to set the boundaries of their perspectives.

It probably wasn't the wisest idea to point out the obvious in the form of a question.

A note for Otheadp:

You're almost there. You've almost got an idea. About anything. Keep working. It'll only take you a few more years at the rate you're going. I'll personally cheer.

A General Note:

In the meantime, the lack of consideration given economic factors is highly suggestive.

Of Americans, who live better than most of, if not the entirety of the world, I can say that Christians are a more frequent source of violence than any other religion.

Furthermore, the topic overlooks alleged historic examples; e.g. God punishes a man in the Bible for not committing genocide.

Or a 450 year-old grudge by God being given over to the Hebrews to execute?

Revenge is the "Jewish man's burden." Just ask Golda Meier.

Bring me a war that's purely about religion, and I'll make the call.

 

[otheadp]

tiassa, you puzzy dass fitch,

you once again prove that your perspectives are limited to what you know
what you do not know however, is religious fanatism
or, at least not first hand
(i'm sorry. CNN, or even pics of corpses, is not first hand)

it has nothing to do with class, and everything to do with pure religious hate.
they don't want to be rich. they are proud to not be rich. they don't need the really expensive leather sofa or the super fine caviar. the $1200 Gucci bag is not on their minds.
they do not hate because "The Enemy" has something they don't have.

the inciters of hate (the fascists, the oppressors), instead of relieving their followers' economic burden, (which is very often easily achievable, or not even necessary) and then theoretically removing their hate, instead choose to rally their troops for their religious cause.
they present "The Enemy" not as capitalist pigs, but rather as enemies of the faith. fighting them is a religious duty.

what is cutting off Daniel Pearl's head have to do with any class struggle?
they killed him because he was a Dirty Jew.

you're a [apparently] socialist, living in a capitalist society
so of course, everything is in terms of money for you
proletariat power G!

but not all things revolve around money! at least not everywhere!
actually, i think if PM was intelligent enough to comprehand your last post, he'd actually get offended.

 

[path]

Tiassa is waging a class war The poor muslims around the globe have been trodden on for too long by the west, nevermind their own fellow muslims that doesn't fit in. Islam teaches muslims to see non-muslims as less then human you are a smart guy tiassa (no doubt genius in your own view) what happens when you manage to turn people into subhumans what is it a prerequisite for? The fact that Al quedas #1 and #2 come from upperclass backgrounds is also a fly in your ointment. I think education is more important than wealth in this case

Here it seems this site is down now hopefully the British authorities finally realized how many paragraphs of law these guys were breaking.

The obligation of hating false religious
This Saturday's LIVE talk on Paltalk will discuss one of the greatest
forgotten obligations in Islaam - Hating false religions. Allaah (swt)
orders the believers to hate all other religions, way of lives, creeds,
doctrines and beliefs that contradict with Islaam, and one cannot be
Muslim without to declare animosity and hatred towards kufr, bid'ah,
shirk and nifaaq (Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism,
Buddhism, Democracy, Freedom etc.).

Date and time: 27th of March 2004, from 5:30pm - 6:30pm GMT
Room: LIVE - Hating false religions
Speaker: Abu Muwahhid

From the kafir loving folks over at Al-Muhajiroun
http://www.almuk.com/obm/paltalk.html

Are you troubled need some advice? Well try our handy dandy islam Q&A service to set you on the straight path again
From Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

Question :
Is it haram to have iftar with non muslims like hindu,christian.etc...?.

Answer :
Praise be to Allaah.

It is permissible to have iftaar with non-Muslims if there is a shar’i reason for doing so, such as calling them to the true religion, or softening their hearts towards Islam, etc, which are what is hoped for if they come and eat iftaar at the tables set up for communal iftaar, as happens in some countries. But if it is done just to be friendly towards them and enjoy their company, this is a dangerous matter, because the principle of al-wala' wa'l-bara' (befriending the believers and showing enmity towards the disbelievers) is one of the basic principles of Islam, and one of the most important duties of the believers. ...

linky link http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=38125&dgn=4

Your uncle gave you a slave for Eid but can you keep it?

Slavery and islam

Allah is our creator and ultimate Master. We, as his creations and slaves
are obliged to express our servitude to Him Alone. If one does not submit
his slavery to Allah, which of course is far more heinous and unjust to
Allah in comparison to the 'injustices' of slavery and sexual relationship,
etc. by a human master.

Since the human being did not willingly submit to the ultimate Master,
Allah, He condemns them to the unwilling slavery of his sincere slaves. And
by understanding the powers of a man master, they may understand the Powers
of the True Master, Allah. In fact, the concept of slavery should be
regarded as a concept of mercy, as the heinous crime of rejecting Allah as
our Master demands immediate terminating of life. Allah, our kind Master,
has granted an opportunity to his very negators to enjoy a second chance of
life and redirect it to the right avenue by submitting to Him as the
ultimate Master.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.

From the happy people over at
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=1928


Conclusion on meaning of jihad from the loving community over at http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/jihad/#epilogue

My brothers! The ummah that knows how to die a noble and honourable death is granted an exalted life in this world and eternal felicity in the next. Degradation and dishonour are the results of the love of this world and the fear of death. Therefore prepare for jihad and be the lovers of death. Life itself shall come searching after you.

My brother, you should know that one day you will face death and this ominous event can only occur once. If you suffer on this occasion in the way of Allah, it will be to your benefit in this world and your reward in the next. And remember brother that nothing can happen without the Will of Allah: ponder well what Allah, the Blessed, the Almighty, has said:

‘Then after the distress, He sent down security for you. Slumber overtook a party of you, while another party was thinking about themselves (as to how to save themselves, ignoring the others and the Prophet) and thought wrongly of Allah - the thought of ignorance. They said, "Have we any part in the affair?" Say you (O Muhammad): "Indeed the affair belongs wholly to Allah." They hide within themselves what they dare not reveal to you, saying: "If we had anything to do with the affair, none of us would have been killed here." Say: "Even if you had remained in your homes, those for whom death was decreed would certainly have gone forth to the place of their death: but that Allah might test what is in your hearts; and to purify that which was in your hearts (sins), and Allah is All-Knower of what is in (your) hearts."’

(Surat al-Imran (3), ayah 154)

You should yearn for an honourable death and you will gain perfect happiness. May Allah grant myself and yours the honour of martyrdom in His way!

More on Jihad from another site
Jihad

Myth: Jihad is only defensive

Another distortion that is promoted is the idea that Jihad is only defensive. The protagonists of this idea again utilise certain misinterpretations to justify their positions.

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress the limits. For Allah loves not the transgressors” [TMQ Al-Baqarah: 190].

“And if they incline to peace, you incline to it also, and trust in Allah. Verily! He is the hearer, the knower” [TMQ Al-A’raf: 61].

These two verses however, cannot abrogate the 119 other verses of Qur’an that suggest that Jihad is not merely limited to defensive war alone. These 119 verses, which are general and absolute, indicate that Jihad encompasses all of the following types of war:

Believe me I can come up with dozens of links like these they are not small aberrations. Do you remeber after 9/11 when some journalists went to do some interviews in Saudi and on camera the saudis being interviewed refused to shake hands with the interviewer explaining that it was not allowed to touch a kafir.

 

[lostminotaur]

It is permissible to have iftaar with non-Muslims if there is a shar’i reason for doing so, such as calling them to the true religion, or softening their hearts towards Islam, etc, which are what is hoped for if they come and eat iftaar at the tables set up for communal iftaar, as happens in some countries. But if it is done just to be friendly towards them and enjoy their company, this is a dangerous matter, because the principle of al-wala' wa'l-bara' (befriending the believers and showing enmity towards the disbelievers) is one of the basic principles of Islam, and one of the most important duties of the believers. ...

Don't generalize. I have many muslim friends and i have shared Iftaar with them numerous times. Just because someone has an orthodox approach to this issue on some website doesn't mean that that is the general accepted view. My friends know that i have no intention of converting to islam yet they continue to be friends with me.

on jihad... first of all.. as far as i know, that word is always taken out of context.. jihad as far as i know means 'to struggle'... there are many verses where jihad is used to explain spiritual struggle.. any muslims out here can correct me if im wrong..

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress the limits. For Allah loves not the transgressors”

there you go.. i quoted what you had quoted.. it explains that Allah does not show love towards transgressors.. because there are no limits specified about transgressions, this verse indirectly explains that transgression will not be tolerated and that the believers should be wise enough to understand that...

Islam teaches muslims to see non-muslims as less then human

you can make such analytical statements about any religion based on a rudimentary examination of certain verses.. not only do you have to look at them from a historical perspective, but also a social perspective and how its relevance has faded over time because society has changed... misplaced prejudice isn't confined only to muslims...

 

[lizey]

I'm comparing to the Bible and extolling the failings of man again.
I'm on a shaky knowledge base here, relying on basic religious studies I did two years ago, feel free to correct me, but:
If you look at the society the Koran originated in, and who it was likely written by, of course some parts could be interpreted to advocate violence, racism, etc. Bible too, and the idiocy that began this comment conveniently ignores that. Because *people* wrote it, and sometimes people are wrong or influenced by popular beliefs of a time, or influenced by their society...it goes on.
On the 'subhuman' comment, one of my best friends is Muslim. I don't need to ring her in order for me to know that she would think this is crap, her family would think it is crap, and probably most of their community.
On the 'religious hate' comment, I'll repeat: surely this has less to do with the religion and more to do with specific people's problems. I mean really, are we going to blame religion for this? I don't think it has anything to do with it. I think these fanatics are just twisted.

 

[path]

Don't generalize. I have many muslim friends and i have shared Iftaar with them numerous times. Just because someone has an orthodox approach to this issue on some website doesn't mean that that is the general accepted view. My friends know that i have no intention of converting to islam yet they continue to be friends with me.

I am not generalizing those are not my words you see. I know and work with muslims myself and we have no problem with eachother but they aren't very devout. I used to work at a Red Cross refugee center here in Norway most of the asylum seekers were muslims from Somalia and Kosovo. I even had a "muslim housemate" fantastic guy but again not what you would call devout. So I know that all muslims aren't "evil" but there is a plethora of islamic information out there that is mildly to extremely hostile towards non-muslims.

on jihad... first of all.. as far as i know, that word is always taken out of context.. jihad as far as i know means 'to struggle'... there are many verses where jihad is used to explain spiritual struggle.. any muslims out here can correct me if im wrong..

Look at the second link I posted they are claiming that there are 4 instances where jihad is refered to as "personal" and 119 where it is referred to as "military". Of course most modern western muslims would hold to the personal struggle view but even if they held to the military view they wouldn't likely admit it to a kafir, have you ever heard of the term Taqiyya?

there you go.. i quoted what you had quoted.. it explains that Allah does not show love towards transgressors.. because there are no limits specified about transgressions, this verse indirectly explains that transgression will not be tolerated and that the believers should be wise enough to understand that...

And and what is a transgressor? or transgression if you read more of that section you will see it is one who makes mischief in the land. What is making mischief etc etc It is Wide open for interpretation

you can make such analytical statements about any religion based on a rudimentary examination of certain verses.. not only do you have to look at them from a historical perspective, but also a social perspective and how its relevance has faded over time because society has changed... misplaced prejudice isn't confined only to muslims...

Faded over time? The problem is you are applying judeo-christian ideas to islam. Most muslims even moderate see the quran as eternal Look at proud muslims chant in the "Prophets love and tolerance for mankind" thread

We will toss you to the garbage doctor hate, The Quran is valid for every time and date

I think PM is in fact a rather moderate muslim. My examination isn't rudimentary it is incomplete true but it is ongoing. Just finished "history of the middle east" Bernard Lewis and "muslim authors of the crusades" I am not talking about misplaced prejudice I am talking about doctrine and no offence, it needs to be muslims who convince me I am wrong.

 

[path]

I'm comparing to the Bible and extolling the failings of man again.
I'm on a shaky knowledge base here, relying on basic religious studies I did two years ago, feel free to correct me, but:
If you look at the society the Koran originated in, and who it was likely written by, of course some parts could be interpreted to advocate violence, racism, etc. Bible too, and the idiocy that began this comment conveniently ignores that. Because *people* wrote it, and sometimes people are wrong or influenced by popular beliefs of a time, or influenced by their society...it goes on. .

Ever notice how when you say "islam" there is always someone who responds "christianity" :bugeye: Ask your friend who the AUTHOR of the quran is, have her ask her imam. You and I can see that the quran was influenced by time and place but that is irrelevant since we aren't muslims.

On the 'subhuman' comment, one of my best friends is Muslim. I don't need to ring her in order for me to know that she would think this is crap, her family would think it is crap, and probably most of their community.
On the 'religious hate' comment, I'll repeat: surely this has less to do with the religion and more to do with specific people's problems. I mean really, are we going to blame religion for this? I don't think it has anything to do with it. I think these fanatics are just twisted.

No doubt your friend is a good person but has she read and understood the quran, hadith, and sunnah. No doubt there are twisted fanatics what worries me is that they can back up thier fanaticism with quran, hadith, and sunnah

 

[DoctorNO]

“

Cause of violence, & religious implications

”
You'd have to read a book. Martin Reisbrödt, Pious Passions.

However, the underlying cause of violence generally starts with economic motives. Religion is merely the mask. Remember that all political struggles are class struggles.

tiassa, your argument may only be largely be held true for the Islamic conquests of the 7th century.

Not with the other major issues religion like…

* The killing of muslim apostates, gays & adulterers. The maiming of muslim thieves. The muslim slaughter of Spanish jews, Spanish Christian monks. Suicide bombings. Terrorist bombings. Etc.

* The Christian Crusades was initiated by Pope Urban to unite feuding Christians against a common enemy, the invading muslims. Nothing to do with economics.

* The Christian Inquisition was initiated to root out heretics. Nothing to do with economics.

* Jews were already rich but Jewish terrorism was initiated to reclaim their religious heritage, the land of Israel, after talks & negotiations have failed. And to escape persecutions abroad.

* Hindus retaliated in kind after receiving a train full of dead hindus from Pakistan.

Remember tiassa, we are talking about religious violence here, not secular violence. So the majority of wars would not apply unless the cause was religious in nature.

“

Consistency relative to time

”
Symptoms and affectations of what age?

With regards to the entire history of the religion. Remember tiassa, religious violence.

“

Area of Effect.

”
Means of measure? A million dollars fifty years ago bought you more Peeps® than a million dollars would today. Whether or not it's the same batch of Peeps® is a question that, I'm told, is up for grabs.

I said area. That means with respect to geography.

Likewise, changes in weapons and delivery technology change the measure of the area of effect.

Lets limit the scope to the people committing the act. That means a rogue general nuking the entire arab region for religious purposes would only classify as an isolated case from a very small area of geography.



So tiassa, you still think this is a propaganda for 3 year olds?

 

[Flores]

* The killing of muslim apostates, gays & adulterers. The maiming of muslim thieves. The muslim slaughter of Spanish jews, Spanish Christian monks. Etc.

* The Christian Crusades was initiated by Pope Urban to unite feuding Christians against a common enemy, the invading muslims. Nothing to do with economics.

Can you enlighten us to the authority of invading muslims that you seem to speak about? I only know of very few countries that are applying Islamic law? You have stated that christian Crusades were initiated by Pope, so who are initiating muslim attacks, please name groups or countries......and please identify the relationship of this isolated group with the large muslim population....because as a muslim, I don't answer to no one.

 

[DoctorNO]

Can you enlighten us to the authority of invading muslims that you seem to speak about? I only know of very few countries that are applying Islamic law?

What do you mean "the authority of invading muslims"?

You have stated that christian Crusades were initiated by Pope, so who are initiating muslim attacks, please name groups or countries......and please identify the relationship of this isolated group with the large muslim population....because as a muslim, I don't answer to no one.

Are you asking me for the name of the leaders who invaded christian spain, jerusalem, syria & egypt? Are you asking me for the name of the leaders who harrassed christian pilgrims to jerusalem, the leaders who have besieged the christian Byzantine empire? The leaders of muslims who tried to invade France?

Are you asking me for the relationship of each of these specific hordes to the general population of muslims at that time?

 

[Flores]

What do you mean "the authority of invading muslims"?

I''m indeed asking you about the authority of Islam. You seem to label happy all attacks of every pissed off group maniac depressed idiot out there as representative of Islam and it's constituants and thus I ask you to tell me who is the authority of Islam and when where they voted in by the muslims. If you can't answer this, then shut up for eternity, because you don't know what you are talking about and your lack of education is really showing.

Are you asking me for the name of the leaders who invaded christian spain, jerusalem, syria & egypt? Are you asking me for the name of the leaders who harrassed christian pilgrims to jerusalem, the leaders who have besieged the christian Byzantine empire? The leaders of muslims who tried to invade France?

Yes, I'm asking you clearly to name me those idiots and tell me who voted them in the position of representing Islam? Come on, give the information or cease already. You are wasting too much space. Hitler was voted in power by millions of people and we can clearly assign blame. The Pope was voted in power by millions and again we can clearly assign blame....Who are these thugs that you are talking about and who voted them in from the muslim community....Speak.

Are you asking me for the relationship of each of these specific hordes to the general population of muslims at that time?

YES.....The title of your thread is violance and muslims. How the hell do I know that these hordes are muslims.....Any concrete evidance that the muslim community have agreed to democratically hire these thugs to perform islamic violance, or are they just delluded criminals? Please establish some standards....State sponcored violence is a much different issue than isolated crimes by pure criminals who would be locked up in any culture.

Now, step up and make sense and speak intelligently or die in obscurity...There is no place for children play here and that all you seem to be doing....I know that you have no law degree or background, so I'm guiding you to appropriate steps

 

[DoctorNO]

I think it was a moment of nicotine-deprived weakness. I felt the need to point out the lack of useful information.

As Dr. No's response to me indicates, this is a non-topic.

Unsourced, fallacious, useless.

I would love to add my sources had I the luxury of time. But since I don’t I would just do so as required. For this is a discussion, not a book. So for now please bear the appetizer.

Fallacious? Then would you be so civilized as to point out the fallacies instead of ranting there in the corner like a toddler? As I did point out the fallacies in your little argument.

And remember dear tiassa that what may be useless to you could be a treasure for somebody else.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Note to the Moderator:

James:

You were very quick to move my thread about Islam and its association with terrorism to world events section, what this thread is doing here ?? does this thread disucss religion ??????????????????????

:bugeye: