Cloning

B

Bachus

Registered Senior Member
Are the theists here opposed to this or not....and for what reason? With this i mean cloning of a complete human not just cloning for spare parts :) . also the theists how do you see it? as for me i don't think we need to find more ways to reproduce we have enough people here already.

/edit not sure if this is the right forum so if you want to move it please do
 
The real question for theists with cloning is.. if a perfect human clone is made, how does the soul distribution work..... does it have a new soul (thus is in theory an entirely different person), does it split the soul with the original of the clone? does it not have a soul?and is therefore condemned to no afterlife?!

btw i have to say i do NOT believe in souls, that is why it is directed at theists... but atheists are welcome to have a go at answering it.........
 
Cloning, abortion, euthanasia, homosexual, prophet killing, and false accusation.

This all have one thing in common, it comes down to the greatest gift God gave man in the beggining of his interaction with us, a gift that he can never take back because God keeps His promise, its called "Freewill".

In the book of Genesis it says "In the image of God He created man; male and female He created them". "The woman was taken out of man, and the woman shall leave her father and mother and the two shall become one flesh."

Man in Genesis was later on named "Adam" which also means "man", and the "woman" is also interpreted as the "church" also see Revelation. The woman (church) is taken out of man (human race), one of the ribs (12), so the church came from man and is for man. Thats why there is 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles and today 12 head in the church (pope, cardinal, archbishop, bishop, etc.). Thats why in order to be a disciple of Christ, one must abandon their old ways (father and mother) and follow Him and be one with Him, the two shall become one flesh. Everyone is evil first before bcoming good, its called "conversion", to change(see new testament, and revelation; a bride prepared to meet the groom).

To make up a "Man", a human being, it is composed of two persons, male and female, thats the purpose & the rule, the law of God which He gave. Along with that is freewill (the image of God, as God have freewill). If u ask me "Which came first? the male or the female?" I dont know, maybe the male, LOL, if u want to get scientific, then ask "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" The book of Genesis is a very deep theology, Im not a theologian and my interpretation is limited.

Anyways in short, male (sperm) and female (egg) when united, shall become one flesh. Thats the purpose, the rule of science and the law of Nature, the creation of God, but theres one more thing along with that, a soul and freewill...

Everytime a male and female unites, every conception theres a soul, everytime a sperm and egg unites, Divine intervention comes along with it (soul) and as well as freewill, God keeps His promise and donot break the law of life He gave from the beggining. Human life is sacred, unlike no other life forms, we are created in His image.

A person is independent with freewill which can independently break the laws of God concerning Life's sacredness.

U can stop the egg from uniting with the sperm (homosexual act), u can stop a prophet from preaching (murder), u can kill a persons reputation by false accusation (lying). And by using yur freewill, u can create a human life form with a soul outside the egg and human sexual interaction (cloning) (the church teaches that sex is sacred) this r all possible. But then again, sin is always possible with consequences. How can we determine what is sin and what is not? Thats why the church is very alert concerning wordly issues, there is solution for every problem, and the church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit teaches what is sin and what is not.
 
Everytime a male and female unites, every conception theres a soul, everytime a sperm and egg unites, Divine intervention comes along with it (soul) and as well as freewill, God keeps His promise and donot break the law of life He gave from the beggining. Human life is sacred, unlike no other life forms, we are created in His image.
Click to expand...

You seem to be linking soul and free will? It would appear that Humans are not the only creatures in the World who have free will (ever had a cat?). If so, how does that interfere with your argumentation?


U can stop the egg from uniting with the sperm (homosexual act),
Click to expand...

Sexual abstinence has the same effect, does that mean that celebacy is also a sin? If not, doesn't that imply that female homosexuality is not a sin?

Hans
 
A cat or a dog may indeed have intelligence, in that sense can judge and may have freewill to yur thought, I do agree. In fact animals have emotions, I know my dog will miss me if I leave, and when I come back the dog rejoices.

ok this is for the future questions I expect some of u might ask, this question is mostly asked by kids. All life forms have souls (as is the teaching of the church), everything that has life in it have souls, dogs, plants, humans, animals, even vegetables have souls. But only humans have the soul in which is eternal, an image of God, called "The breathe of life". Maybe the result of that is wisdom, since God is knowledge, after were "FORMED" in His likeness. By the way, Genesis doesnt imply a literal first human species Adam and Eve, but implies the first human race God revealed Himself to (Adam and Eve is estimated by theologians about less than 6,000 yrs ago).

Again, all creatures r created by God, and we should take care of them for they are a gift for us, we are dominant, this proves our likeness in God (St. Francis is the model that we must respect creatures of God). If u give a 27 carat diamond worth 2 million dollars to your wife, u expect her to cherish it.

In summary, humans with great intelligence, wisdom, are the most dominant species, because we r the image of God. In fact, we can tame animals and make them serve us, even the King of the Jungle, Lion, makes a fool out of its giant body, and dance for us, LOL. I speak accordingly to what the church teaches, and thats what I post here.
 
one more thing...conscience...

A conscience is formed, it is a lot like taming. U can tame a dog not to take a crap inside the house, conscience is a lot like it. However, conscience can b formed by WORDS.

Jesus said "I am the WORD Incarnate", "My WORDS are Spirit and Life". Some ppl's conscience is formed in the street and doesnt feel guilty even for striking a man dead, because the street taught them that. In the Catechist, it is written "The church forms our conscience", the right conscience, the right words, the path to eternal life, the Word incarnate, Jesus Himself. "As your father is, so will u be", in other words, we r nothing but products. Either becomes a product of the world, or a product of God, the Word.

I just want to add that incase you will ask. :)
 
again all life forms have souls, ALL,even vegetables, carrots, :) that is how they came to existence, their soul gave them life.

However, only humans have the spirit of God, the soul of God which is eternal.
 
again all life forms have souls, ALL,even vegetables, carrots, that is how they came to existence, their soul gave them life.
Click to expand...

Actually, I dont think you are in accordance with main-stream chrisitianity there, more like the animistic religions (not that there's anything wrong with that IMO). However, its all religion. You believe that the human soul is special, qualitatively different. I believe it is quantitatively different only.

Hans
 
u guys think its funny? lol, u r basically laughing at yurself. and im laughing with u and at you. FACT REMAINS, NOT ONE SCIENTIST CAN CREATE ANY LIFE FORM, FROM PLANTS TO ANIMALS, FOR IT IS THE BREATHE OF LIFE. YES AMINO ACIDS ARE COMMON, PROTIENS, AMONIA, HYDROGEN, METHANE, ETC. ARE COMMON. BUT FACT IS...AGAIN...FACT IS...ONE MORE TIME...FACT IS, not one scientist can create a living cell which also have a short life span. THE MOMENT SCIENCE CAN BRING A LIVING CELL OUT OF GATHERING ATOMS AND BRING A DEAD PERSON BACK TO LIFE IS THE MOMENT I TURN ATHEIST AND WORSHIP HUMAN INTELLIGENCE INSTEAD. Until then shut your hole, and laugh at yourself and I will laugh with you and your psychic prediction...GOOD LUCK FOR HOPING FOR THE IMPOSSIBLE, U CAN ATTEMPT TO TAKE GOD'S PLACE but u will never be succesfull, Lucifer tried and succeeded for a short while, but he got cast into Hell and the rest of his follwers with him afterwards. Yes u can clone, but thats it...
 
Hans. that is the Christian church teaching, the original first founded in Rome made for all, gentiles and jews "universal" latin for "catholic"
 
I'm bored of christians, are there any Satanists here?
or maybe any heathens or hindus

p.s. I really think that real satanists are just depressed christians because Satan is a christian deity
 
Obsolete theism

I've found that most theistic principles employed to argue against cloning depend on static conceptualizations of God, most of which were outmoded by the time of Surhawardi's death at Aleppo in 1191.

We see that religions are dynamic in a certain sense. When pushed to the wall, a religion will either adapt or die out--rather like an organism in that sense. But the educational base of, say, evangelical Christianity, precludes much of the science that leads to cloning. Over time, those evangelical Christians who oppose cloning will "peter out" (excuse a bad pun, please). This is because that particular version of the Christian paradigm is not flexible enough to functionally include the latest innovation of the human experience--as the example has it, cloning.

I have yet to hear a theistic objection to cloning that isn't based in rigid theology of rapidly-dwindling significance. The objectors will pass to a minimal existence, surviving from violation to violation as the seemingly-inevitable quirks of the human experience flare up and offer new ethical conundra.

But I cannot think of a valid theistic objection to cloning.

(Edit for Avatar: Yes, most Satanists are depressed or offended Christians. Satanism is more of an identity politic than anything else. As to the other ... well, certain heathens get along well enough with, say, atheists, that there's little, if anything, to argue about. It's like looking for the Satanic objection to Creationism ... I'm sure, given enough time, that I could postulate one. But it would be an invented theory. As a Satanist, I rejected Creationism, and as a general theist at present, I accept cloning. My ethical concerns are human-based, not theological.)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
This is because that particular version of the Christian paradigm is not flexible enough to functionally include the latest innovation of the human experience--as the example has it, cloning.
Click to expand...

It is <i>never</i> flexible enough. eg. homosexuallity, role of woman, wiccans, most of science.

How can a theist possibly know whether or not a clone has a soul? Check the cloning section of the bible? Check the clone for an incorporeal unverifiable, magical component?
The assumption that a clone might not have a soul is unjustified. It is equally likely that a clone has its own soul or shares its soul with its identical twin.
 
My Aunt who is a really religious person told me that clones dont have souls because they were made by man.

Sort of like if you were to make a pie. You didnt make the apples that are in the pie. You made the pie, you put it together. You didnt do anything else.

So I guess that means that if we clone a human all we did was put him together, we didnt give it a soul.. only God can make certain ingrediants....

I dont know Im still agnostic. Ya'll probably dont understand what Im trying to say anyways.
 
BUT FACT IS...AGAIN...FACT IS...ONE MORE TIME...FACT IS, not one scientist can create a living cell
Click to expand...

Sure, its a fact, even if you say it only once. However, a hundred years ago it was an equally indisputable fact that science could not create a flying machine. Which made the "muscleman" types of the time claim (surely in versals, and repeatedly) that flight required a divine gift which was only granted to birds and angels.

Hans
 
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Sure, its a fact, even if you say it only once. However, a hundred years ago it was an equally indisputable fact that science could not create a flying machine. Which made the "muscleman" types of the time claim (surely in versals, and repeatedly) that flight required a divine gift which was only granted to birds and angels.

Hans
Click to expand...

HANS, your a child in judgment,(though u r old enough 2 b my mother), listen, you are making a caveman analogy. That is like saying "Well cavemans didnt realize fire exist until the mongolians proved them wrong!"...

LISTEN, nobody can make a claim of "fact" unless such claim is evident and proven. Noone has the right to say ""Its impossible to fly" the church or the bible has not made that claim. I can only say "to point a shotgun at my TV and pull the trigger, its impossible the bullet will have no effect on the screen (cause and effect)" I can say that because its evident, that its a fact it will have an effect, such claim of "impossibility" is proven, laws of physics.

I can confidently say "gaining weight is impossible" with the proof that I ate 10 lbs of meal a day, no exercise. Only poops 3 lbs of what I eat. And if I still havent gained a pound, then I can make such claim with such evidence.

FOR THE 1,000,000,000 TIMES (FIGURE OF SPEECH), to create a living cell is just like bringing a dead person back to life, for all life forms have a life span. U CANT EVEN FIND A CURE FOR CANCERS, AND U THINK U CAN ACTUALLY BRING DEAD PERSON BACK TO LIFE? WHO DO U THINK WE ARE? LOOK HOW FAR YOUR PRIDE IS TAKING U, U R NOT GOD. If a man got his head cut off from a train accident, can u install it back and stitch it then bring him to life? Can you? Can u give a dying cell CPR and bring it to life? If the cell is decapitated, can u bring it to life? Who do u think u r?

A life forms have all the necessary ingredients around. The book of Genesis said "God formed man out of the earth and breathe into his nostrils the breathe of life", later on, translation came about as "Dust", other bible "Clay", but we came from earth. Yes again, all necessary ingredients to make up a man is found everywhere, therefore u should have no reason to provide proof of chance.

Life forms is similar to electronics, computers, TV, etc. Indeed u may have the parts all installed and ready to work on your computer, but your computer is dead without the energy source, and that is called "Electricity".

Same goes with life forms. U can have alll the necessary ingredients, but only God can bring it to life, we call it "the breathe of life". U can have the human brain, heart, lungs, etc. all installed, but fact remains, the soul left the man and u can never bring him to life ever again, THATS A FACT.

Now, this topic, who is the winner? Scientifically I am, BECAUSE FACT IS NO SCIENTIST CAN EVER BRING A DEAD PERSON TO LIFE, but in a psychic sense, I lost because you have a prediction and u seemed so confident that it will come true, and u know what, Ill let u find out for yourself.

In the book of Revelation, before the end of times, it says there will be omens in the skys (UFO), and the anti-christ will be given so much power and authority that he can bring fire from the heavens and come down to earth (atomic bomb), he can also bring a bronze and silver statue to life and when people see it move, they fell and prostate in worship (television, internet, radio, media) and there will be great confusion like in the tower of babel, ppl argued together in their human thoughts how to find God instead of allowing the spirit of God guide them (different religions, etc.. There will be many false preachers and will decieve many, (money making televangelist, who teach that faith is enough. When the truth is faith without works is dead, the bible says so, their faith is dead, they r mislead) In Fact, the anti-Christ will b given so much power and authority that he can bring a dead person back to life, and once again people fell in prostate and worship the beast. Then people say "Who can fight against the beast?".


Hans, science indeed can bring a dead person to life, thats common among technology today, there r people who would have been dead by now if not because of science. (Again theres nothing wrong with science, its the pride along with God's gift and using it against Him). BUT SCIENCE CAN NEVER CREATE A LIFE FORM, NEVER, THATS GOD'S PLACE AND ROLE, AS I WAS SAYING THE DAY THEY CAN CREATE A LIVING CELL AND GIVE IT LIFE, IS THE DAY I WILL WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.

Thats where u r Hans, u ask yourself "Who can fight against human intelligence and human success?" in other words "Who can fight against the beast?" u r attempting to take God's place.


ONE DAY, ONE DAY YOU WILL LEARN...IT WILL BE GLORIOUS FOR THE BELIEVERS OF GOD, BUT GRIEVIOUS TO YOU,, I PITY U ON THAT DAY...:(
 
Originally posted by muscleman
FOR THE 1,000,000,000 TIMES (FIGURE OF SPEECH), to create a living cell is just like bringing a dead person back to life, for all life forms have a life span. U CANT EVEN FIND A CURE FOR CANCERS, AND U THINK U CAN ACTUALLY BRING DEAD PERSON BACK TO LIFE? WHO DO U THINK WE ARE? LOOK HOW FAR YOUR PRIDE IS TAKING U, U R NOT GOD. If a man got his head cut off from a train accident, can u install it back and stitch it then bring him to life? Can you? Can u give a dying cell CPR and bring it to life? If the cell is decapitated, can u bring it to life? Who do u think u r?
Click to expand...

the correct question is: Are we able to do that in the future
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top