Cloning and the nature of the self

[GodlessEvil]

CLONES, even magically created instant exact reproductions of "yourself" would, in the moment of their creation, have an entirely different experience of that moment, an entirely different "point of view" than you.. and the Infinite Intelligence that IS the universe would be having an entirely different experience BEING that clone than it is has BEING you... soooo.... I think God would just go on Godding as always, and your question would no more bother God than it bothers me....

BUT, now here's a little something to think about.. IF you learned to BE your awareness, your "point of view", and awareness IS a NON-LOCAL activity of course... could you, would you MOVE INTO YOUR brand-new fresh clone... and live YEARS and YEARS longer??!!!? And if you could do that... move into another locality at will... do you think you'd really need the clone????????

Zombie that for awhile, GodlessEvil...

Well i have already thought of that in some way, based on parallel universes, are the universes equally real meaning there are many versions of you or is there only one version of you that can ever exist.

However there was someone who once had a brain problem where the two halves of his brain were not connected, they were severed to halt epilepsy and it meant that there was two of him, two thinking brains.

It would be pretty weird because both sides think they are YOU but are independent in a way.That is like having one soul split in half, i guess the best way of explaining it to someone who believes in souls would be to imagine the soul is like water running down a stream, and if it approaches a point where it can split in half, meaning two streams, it does but its still the same water, obviously does not do this all the time, or maybe it does if we apply parallel universes.

I would say just from that, that the universe allows there to be duplicate independent versions of you that are essentially 100% the same.

 

[ayla_z]

I don't think you have to go as far as postulating Parallel Universes
to realize that every individual conscious being is an entirely separate event,
and the idea that a cloned version of your body would BE you is narcissistic.

The idea that you ARE your "thinking self" is troubling to me.....
Your physical brain thinks, that's all it does,
that's what it was created to do.. it will think and think and think,
even while you sleep.. unless you alter it with drugs.. and even then...


Your brain is a Tool you use, it makes sense of things, even if it's wrong..
it is a Survival tool.. and not much more. You are MORE, way more.....
One day, when you are feelin safe, try NOT identifying with your
thoughts for awhile. To every thought, respond "Not That" (as in "I am not that"),
and see where it takes you. Just a suggestion.

<a href="http://www.ayla-z.com">Ayla Z</a>

 

[Cyperium]

Well i have already thought of that in some way, based on parallel universes, are the universes equally real meaning there are many versions of you or is there only one version of you that can ever exist.

However there was someone who once had a brain problem where the two halves of his brain were not connected, they were severed to halt epilepsy and it meant that there was two of him, two thinking brains.

It would be pretty weird because both sides think they are YOU but are independent in a way.That is like having one soul split in half, i guess the best way of explaining it to someone who believes in souls would be to imagine the soul is like water running down a stream, and if it approaches a point where it can split in half, meaning two streams, it does but its still the same water, obviously does not do this all the time, or maybe it does if we apply parallel universes.

I would say just from that, that the universe allows there to be duplicate independent versions of you that are essentially 100% the same.

But Godless, really, do you think that someone became aware when the brain split? That someone just started existing then? Not born but split weeird...I'd rather think that the second brain-half were unconscious, only one soul in one brain, otherwise think of the possibility that some become aware in some weird semi-state of existance, it shouldn't be allowed...or we are *very* lucky to be in a human body with no such twists.

But still, I don't think that would happen, and I don't think it has happened either.

 

[Light Travelling]

For a clone to be an exact copy of you... it would have to be you. As both you and the clone exist at the same time, the clone is obviously not you, nor an exact copy of you. Nor ever can be.

As for the souls I have heard two explanations.

1. God can put souls in cloned embryos just as easily as putting souls in naturally occuring embryos. Or from an eastern perspective - a reincarnating soul will seek rebirth wherever it can, if that is in a cloned body.... so be it.
(some traditions believe sould can re incarnate as animals - so why not clones)

In which case clones have no impact at all on the arguments of god or soul.


2. A clone will be an intelligent functioning biological being, but with no soul, something akin to animal but more intelligent. The result of this will be a fully functioning being but with no higher sense of conscience; or simply no conscience. As our sense of conscience comes from the divine within (soul).

In which case... time will tell.

 

[Light Travelling]

For a clone to be an exact copy of you... it would have to be you. As both you and the clone exist at the same time, the clone is obviously not you, nor an exact copy of you. Nor ever can be.
.

In fact even this shows that clones prove nothing about existence of soul, the fact two beings have the same DNA does not mean they cannot have two different souls. Unless one is saying that a soul is the product of DNA and I dont believe any tradition holding that there is a soul would hold with that.



I suppose the proof of this is to clone a natural empbryo whilst still in the womb. Keep the life expeinces of the two infants as similar as possible. The infants should react exactly the same to extetnal stimuli and have the same personalities, if not it would seem to indicate a soul or other phenomon.

That said though I do not agree with genetic experiment or cloning..

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Clones have souls

*************
M*W: The whole idea of a different and distinct soul for every body is absurd! I believe that what is defined as "soul" is nothing more than bioelectric activity in a living body. It is one entity that permeates our bodies. When one of us dies, and our bioelectricity leaves our body, it doesn't die but remains permeating through everyone else who is alive. There is nothing spiritual about it. It is a natural phenomenon. This is a personal belief.

Clones OTOH are also separate and distinct individuals even if your own DNA was used to create them. Depending on the transcription that takes place within your G-T-C-A (which may be in a different sequence than yours), your clone could end up with a different and distinct transcription making your clone like a brother or sister and not you, yourself. Your clone would be raised under different circumstances in a different time, so it would never actually be you recreated all over again.

 

[jayleew]

There is only one way to end this argument; otherwise, we are speculating. I don't agree with it, but if China or some other country would just clone a human and get it over with...

But we are still talking about a unique, fertilized egg, that is inserted into a woman, right? Until science is able to clone a human from a skin sample, we will never know the nature of the soul. Better yet, let science make a man, and if he appears to have a "soul", then that would disprove God's existence since we would be able to do what God can do.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

If you want to be scientific about these things and want to answer the question whether a clone will have a soul and what kind, you first have to establish a basic knowledge of the nature of soul.

So, the first thing you do is to prove that humans have souls.

 

[Light Travelling]

Better yet, let science make a man, and if he appears to have a "soul", then that would disprove God's existence since we would be able to do what God can do.

No this proves nothing (see my post above).

But to elaborate further. If forget for a minute whether we believe there is a soul or not an look at it logically. We could take a fairly common definition of soul as the non-material (possibly divine) part of the human that does not die with the body. It departs the body after death. If you follow eastern thought it enters a new body after.

Now the key here is 'departs the body' and 'enters the body'. This presuppses that a body must first exist to be entered or departed. Therefore the way in which the body is made has absolutely no bearing at all on the soul's ability to enter or depart it...

Unless you say that a body grows around a soul - in which case the soul has to be there first.... but I know of know theology that would support this.

So all cloning can ever prove is that man can make a body . It can never logically prove anything... one way or the oter about god or souls.

think about it

 

[jayleew]

No this proves nothing (see my post above).

But to elaborate further. If forget for a minute whether we believe there is a soul or not an look at it logically. We could take a fairly common definition of soul as the non-material (possibly divine) part of the human that does not die with the body. It departs the body after death. If you follow eastern thought it enters a new body after.

So, you're telling me if that science produces a body that for all intent and purposes had a soul, that that would not disprove God's existence?

I have faith and I believe, but I'm not stupid (or maybe I am and that is why I would question my belief at such an event).

 

[Cyperium]

The dilemma here is really not about cloning, because they are not precise enough to mimic another being as much as to "being the same person".

The real dilemma (and it has been discussed earlier on sciforums) is if science could "scan" a man and make a perfect copy, like the method used in teleportation (using various quantum techniques, one if I remember correct called "quantum tangling").

This would produce two identical beings physically.

If those two were created synchronically the same time then there is no known process that determines which one should be aware in which body.

This is the dilemma (kind of like a awarenes "twin paradox").

Since they are physically the same then that could prove that there is a non-physical process that determines the outcome. Or is "random" itself a tool to solve those problems? Then we have to ask is "random" real? What is it if it is real? What determines the outcome of "random"?

 

[Light Travelling]

So, you're telling me if that science produces a body that for all intent and purposes had a soul, that that would not disprove God's existence?
:

Yes - because you would also have to prove;
1. the clone had a soul
2. man had created the soul aswell, and it had not been put there by a god.

If you cant prove these you've proved nothing.



I'm not saying there is a soul, I 'm not saying there isn't. Just that it cant be proved either way by cloning.