Actually I feel just dandy without requiring friendships with permissive pharmacists
Clinical Death and the Afterlife
- Thread starter Prince_James
- Start date
Actually I feel just dandy without requiring friendships with permissive pharmacists
That's nice. I don't particularly care.
You are, for whatever reason, intellectually dishonest in the extreme. It's either that, or you're just an egotistical fool -- which brings us back to the feel-good thing. So, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt there.
You are, for whatever reason, intellectually dishonest in the extreme. It's either that, or you're just an egotistical fool -- which brings us back to the feel-good thing. So, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt there.
You could appease me by stopping your pseudo-intellectual bullshitting altogether. Alas, desire is irrelevant. I am a machine.
That was hypothetical. Robots do not love, no matter what lies Steven Spielberg tries to sell you.
here are some tidbits about near-death experiences I threw together. I have sources if you feel you need them. I think it's all rather interesting, and I'd like to hear reactions(I'm sure I didn't have to ask). I know it's rather long, but at least read the bolded parts.
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The term near-death experience (NDE) was coined in 1975 in the book Life After Life by Raymond Moody, MD. It is a distinct subjective experience that people sometimes report after a near-death episode. In a near-death episode, a person is either clinically dead, near death, or in a situation where death is likely or expected. These circumstances include serious illness or injury, such as from a car accident, military combat, childbirth, or suicide attempt. People in profound grief, in deep meditation, or just going about their normal lives have also described experiences that seem just like NDEs, even though these people were not near death. Many near-death experiencers (NDErs) have said the term "near-death" is not correct; they are sure that they were in death, not just near-death.
In 1975, Dr. Raymond Moody conducted a study of 150 people who died, or almost died, and then recovered. From this sample study, he was able to outline a common core experience of the near-death experience:
"Shortly after hearing himself pronounced dead, the patient feels himself float out of his body and hears a loud disturbing noise as he swishes through a long, dark tunnel. Suddenly, he is looking down on his body, watching the resuscitation attempt. Spirits of deceased relatives and friends come to help him. A loving, warm being of light appears. This being questions him, nonverbally, as to what he has done with his life. Not for the purpose of judgment, but simply as a learning experience. At the same time, he is presented an instant replay of his life. Approaching a barrier, he finds he must return to earth. Overwhelmed by intense feelings of joy, love, and peace, he does not want to return. But something pulls him back, and he is reunited with his physical body. The person's life is remarkably changed by the experience, particularly in that he no longer fears death. Since words are inadequate to describe this episode, and because others scoff, he is reluctant to discuss his experience"
It is interesting to note that the vast majority of documented near-death experiences follow this core pleasurable pattern, with fewer people reaching the later stages, seeming to imply that there is an ordered set of experienced waiting to unfold.
The pleasurable experience is not the only NDE that is documented. A small number of NDErs have reported distressing NDEs. These experiences involve mostly feelings of terror, horror, anger, isolation, and/or guilt. Both types of NDErs usually report that the experience was hyper-real—even more real than earthly life.
Moody found that the most common element to all the accounts is an appearance of a bright white light that is identified as a holy entity of some sort that does not identify itself. While this being of light is present cross-culturally, people interpret it according to their belief system. A Christian person might believe it is Jesus, while a Jewish person may say they met an angel. Religious belief, though, is not necessary to experience the NDE - Atheists who have had them may refer to the light as "some ethereal being."
There are several theories as to how, physiologically, near-death experiences occur. Some believe that brain cells dying from a lack of oxygen help trigger the episodes, while others point to psychological factors such as fear of death, or to the changing state of consciousness people may go through in a life-threatening condition, similar to an experience one would have while under the influence of hallucinogens. But none of these accurately explain why the core NDE is so constant.
Most research done on the near-death experience is done with cardiac-arrest patients. Most recently, cardiologist Pim van Lommel, a researcher at Rijnstate Hospital in Arnhem, the Netherlands, conducted an eight-year study involving 344 cardiac-arrest patients who seemed to have died and were later revived. Out of that total, 282 had no memories, while 62 reported a classic near-death experience. If purely physiological factors, like a cutoff of oxygen to the brain were at play, most of the study patients should have had such an experience.
Van Lommel examined the patients' records for any factors traditionally used to explain near-death experiences—such as setting, drugs, or illness—and found no evidence of their influence. Apparent death was the only factor linked to near-death experiences.
To quote Dr. Peter Fenwick, one of Britain's leading neuropsychiatrists -
"So, our question was -- if people have these experiences, when do they have them? Now, they couldn't have them as they are going down, because we know from the way you lose consciousness during a heart attack, that the memory circuits all go immediately. So, it couldn't be as you go down, but could it be as you come back? The answer to that is that if you come round from an anoxic episode like that, then it's confusional, so you get no clarity in your experiences. We were left then with the only other alternative and that is that they actually occurred during the episode itself and that is a difficult one because neuroscience would say it wasn't possible."
He concludes that there is a possibility that our current understanding of consciousness as connected with the brain is flawed, but he thinks it’s too early to tell. He proposes that new studies be undertaken to help find out, but that people should not make any assumptions until the data is clear.
"We need a study in which we put EEG electrodes, measure the electrical activity of the brain and show, as we know now, that during a cardiac arrest there is no electrical activity.
And we need to do what was one of the key experiments and that is to look at people who say they leave their body and have targets in the room that only can be seen from the ceiling, which is where people usually report their viewpoint.
If they can see the targets and nobody in the room knows what they are, but yet they can bring back that information, then one has to seriously consider that brain and mind may be different things."
These types of test may seem a bit wacky, but there are frequent reports of those with the near-death experience hearing and seeing events that occur while they are clinically dead, observed from "outside of the body." These people hear conversations that occur by doctors and family members over their dead body while they were thought completely unconscious. Take, for example, the case of Dr. Morse and the little girl he revived:
"In 1982, physician Melvin Morse had a case that piqued his curiosity about these extreme states of consciousness. Morse was moonlighting for a helicopter-assisted EMT service while finishing up his residency in pediatrics at Children's Hospital in Seattle. One afternoon he was flown to Pocatello, Idaho, to perform CPR on 8-year-old Crystal Merzlock, who had apparently drowned in the deep end of a community swimming pool. When Morse arrived on the scene, the child had been without a heartbeat for 19 minutes; her pupils were already fixed and dilated. Morse got her heart restarted, climbed into the chopper, and went home. Three days later Crystal regained consciousness.
A few weeks passed. Morse was back at the hospital where Crystal was being treated, and they bumped into each other in the hallway. Crystal pointed at Morse, turned to her mother, and said, "That's the guy who put the tube in my nose at the swimming pool." Morse was stunned. "I didn't know what to do. I had never heard of OBEs [out-of-body experiences] or NDEs[near-death experiences]. I stood there thinking: How was this possible? When I put that tube in her nose, she was brain dead. How could she even have this memory?"
Again, incidents like these - where people are aware of things occuring around and beyond them when they are clinically dead - are documented frequently by objective witnesses in and outside of the medical field, and are as of yet unexplained.
----
The term near-death experience (NDE) was coined in 1975 in the book Life After Life by Raymond Moody, MD. It is a distinct subjective experience that people sometimes report after a near-death episode. In a near-death episode, a person is either clinically dead, near death, or in a situation where death is likely or expected. These circumstances include serious illness or injury, such as from a car accident, military combat, childbirth, or suicide attempt. People in profound grief, in deep meditation, or just going about their normal lives have also described experiences that seem just like NDEs, even though these people were not near death. Many near-death experiencers (NDErs) have said the term "near-death" is not correct; they are sure that they were in death, not just near-death.
In 1975, Dr. Raymond Moody conducted a study of 150 people who died, or almost died, and then recovered. From this sample study, he was able to outline a common core experience of the near-death experience:
"Shortly after hearing himself pronounced dead, the patient feels himself float out of his body and hears a loud disturbing noise as he swishes through a long, dark tunnel. Suddenly, he is looking down on his body, watching the resuscitation attempt. Spirits of deceased relatives and friends come to help him. A loving, warm being of light appears. This being questions him, nonverbally, as to what he has done with his life. Not for the purpose of judgment, but simply as a learning experience. At the same time, he is presented an instant replay of his life. Approaching a barrier, he finds he must return to earth. Overwhelmed by intense feelings of joy, love, and peace, he does not want to return. But something pulls him back, and he is reunited with his physical body. The person's life is remarkably changed by the experience, particularly in that he no longer fears death. Since words are inadequate to describe this episode, and because others scoff, he is reluctant to discuss his experience"
It is interesting to note that the vast majority of documented near-death experiences follow this core pleasurable pattern, with fewer people reaching the later stages, seeming to imply that there is an ordered set of experienced waiting to unfold.
The pleasurable experience is not the only NDE that is documented. A small number of NDErs have reported distressing NDEs. These experiences involve mostly feelings of terror, horror, anger, isolation, and/or guilt. Both types of NDErs usually report that the experience was hyper-real—even more real than earthly life.
Moody found that the most common element to all the accounts is an appearance of a bright white light that is identified as a holy entity of some sort that does not identify itself. While this being of light is present cross-culturally, people interpret it according to their belief system. A Christian person might believe it is Jesus, while a Jewish person may say they met an angel. Religious belief, though, is not necessary to experience the NDE - Atheists who have had them may refer to the light as "some ethereal being."
There are several theories as to how, physiologically, near-death experiences occur. Some believe that brain cells dying from a lack of oxygen help trigger the episodes, while others point to psychological factors such as fear of death, or to the changing state of consciousness people may go through in a life-threatening condition, similar to an experience one would have while under the influence of hallucinogens. But none of these accurately explain why the core NDE is so constant.
Most research done on the near-death experience is done with cardiac-arrest patients. Most recently, cardiologist Pim van Lommel, a researcher at Rijnstate Hospital in Arnhem, the Netherlands, conducted an eight-year study involving 344 cardiac-arrest patients who seemed to have died and were later revived. Out of that total, 282 had no memories, while 62 reported a classic near-death experience. If purely physiological factors, like a cutoff of oxygen to the brain were at play, most of the study patients should have had such an experience.
Van Lommel examined the patients' records for any factors traditionally used to explain near-death experiences—such as setting, drugs, or illness—and found no evidence of their influence. Apparent death was the only factor linked to near-death experiences.
To quote Dr. Peter Fenwick, one of Britain's leading neuropsychiatrists -
"So, our question was -- if people have these experiences, when do they have them? Now, they couldn't have them as they are going down, because we know from the way you lose consciousness during a heart attack, that the memory circuits all go immediately. So, it couldn't be as you go down, but could it be as you come back? The answer to that is that if you come round from an anoxic episode like that, then it's confusional, so you get no clarity in your experiences. We were left then with the only other alternative and that is that they actually occurred during the episode itself and that is a difficult one because neuroscience would say it wasn't possible."
He concludes that there is a possibility that our current understanding of consciousness as connected with the brain is flawed, but he thinks it’s too early to tell. He proposes that new studies be undertaken to help find out, but that people should not make any assumptions until the data is clear.
"We need a study in which we put EEG electrodes, measure the electrical activity of the brain and show, as we know now, that during a cardiac arrest there is no electrical activity.
And we need to do what was one of the key experiments and that is to look at people who say they leave their body and have targets in the room that only can be seen from the ceiling, which is where people usually report their viewpoint.
If they can see the targets and nobody in the room knows what they are, but yet they can bring back that information, then one has to seriously consider that brain and mind may be different things."
These types of test may seem a bit wacky, but there are frequent reports of those with the near-death experience hearing and seeing events that occur while they are clinically dead, observed from "outside of the body." These people hear conversations that occur by doctors and family members over their dead body while they were thought completely unconscious. Take, for example, the case of Dr. Morse and the little girl he revived:
"In 1982, physician Melvin Morse had a case that piqued his curiosity about these extreme states of consciousness. Morse was moonlighting for a helicopter-assisted EMT service while finishing up his residency in pediatrics at Children's Hospital in Seattle. One afternoon he was flown to Pocatello, Idaho, to perform CPR on 8-year-old Crystal Merzlock, who had apparently drowned in the deep end of a community swimming pool. When Morse arrived on the scene, the child had been without a heartbeat for 19 minutes; her pupils were already fixed and dilated. Morse got her heart restarted, climbed into the chopper, and went home. Three days later Crystal regained consciousness.
A few weeks passed. Morse was back at the hospital where Crystal was being treated, and they bumped into each other in the hallway. Crystal pointed at Morse, turned to her mother, and said, "That's the guy who put the tube in my nose at the swimming pool." Morse was stunned. "I didn't know what to do. I had never heard of OBEs [out-of-body experiences] or NDEs[near-death experiences]. I stood there thinking: How was this possible? When I put that tube in her nose, she was brain dead. How could she even have this memory?"
Again, incidents like these - where people are aware of things occuring around and beyond them when they are clinically dead - are documented frequently by objective witnesses in and outside of the medical field, and are as of yet unexplained.
http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/intro.htm
An interesting site .. that will either open new horizons or reinforce existing views.
An interesting site .. that will either open new horizons or reinforce existing views.
Out of interest, but how does one measure whether something is real or more real than real? How exactly did the conclusion come about?
"Hey this real life doesn't look real enough for me, but that time when I was about to kick the bucket - that looked twice as real as reality".
I don't get it.
Heh, not sure - maybe they just meant that they felt more aware of everything.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
There have been many cases of people who have been clinically dead (meaning no electrical brain activity) for long periods and then bought back to life who reported some element of 'spiritual' experience.
To me, the most compelling evidence is that they have sometimes described exactly what was going on around their body during this period.
http://near-death.com/evidence.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1095220859246890757
To me, the most compelling evidence is that they have sometimes described exactly what was going on around their body during this period.
http://near-death.com/evidence.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1095220859246890757
for what it's worth, I had an NDE in 1989 and it still feels as potent as way back then...
Really? Was it similar to the "core experience" outlined in my large post?
And could you perhaps explain to us what this "hyper-reality" is, if you experienced it and if it is explainable?
There were some similarities... but also some differences.
I was working (studying) and felt a little tired, around 3 in the afternoon. I was not ill although, to be scrupulously honest, some months previously I had something which could be classed as a strong emotional 'disturbance' ... I fell in love with a complete dork who I thought was my soulmate... possibly justification for us being like chalk and cheese :*)..
Actually, jokes apart, a soulmate is, in my view, someone who triggers some form of spiritual evolution, so he did do the business.
Anyway, back to the NDE... it must have taken all of 20 minutes max. I did not go through a tunnel, but no sooner did I lie down then I was in 'the light'. There were three 'beings' but they looked like one mass of light. I did not get a replay of my life, I did not look down on my physical body (it was completely unimportant). However, 'I' did observe 'myself' and I was wearing the same outfit I had put on that morning.
I was told I could 'come home' but that there was a reason to stay on ('they' were not particularly specific) ... so I did (the choice was ultimately mine but I still felt rather resentful as I felt it was for others and not for me and it was such an amazingly beautiful experience I wanted to stay.
The cynics here would say it was some form of brain trauma or anomaly. Possibly. But even now it feels more of a 'real' memory than say trying to remember when I was a small child or even in my teens.
The only thing I cannot sense any more is the almost tangible 'love'... and a sense of being 'without physical borders'.
I think it was around that time that I called my diaries 'delusions of divinity?' - for obvious reasons. [The '?' is important!]
Hope that helps, Euphrosene
Euphrosene, I dont understand you say you died that afternoon whilst studying, and had a 20 minute NDE, what happened to the doctors of ambulance people, whilst you lay their dead. why was'nt you in a ambulance or hospital, are you sure you never just fell asleep, why do you define it as an NDE and not an halucination.
Carcano
Valued Senior Member
The real research in this area isnt focused on NEAR Death. Near death would mean that the subject still has some vital signs in the form of either breathing, a pulse, or electrical brain activity.
The only research to be taken seriously is that focused on true physical death, with no vital signs whatsoever.
The only research to be taken seriously is that focused on true physical death, with no vital signs whatsoever.
Hi there (and btw Happy Birthday for the 1st!)
I did not say I 'died'... just that I had an experience which mirrored an NDE -which means 'near' death. If, presumably, I had chosen to 'come home' then I would have been found dead.
When I spoke with a doctor some while later, he said the cause would have been heart failure - which is not that uncommon with thwarted love affairs.
Whether it was a hallucination or not depends on your spiritual perspective I suppose. I happen to be a believer - and the details, which I have not yet written of, reflected that. However, despite the knowledge that the 'next phase' is wonderful, it did pose more questions than it answered.
Euphrosene
That would take the researcher into the realms of ghosts and mediums since the spirit would have left the physical body.
I have a theory that the soul has a very small window of opportunity for inter-dimensional communicating. Then their essence disperses - which is why intellects of the past were unable to pass on messages from the other side. The cumulative energy that might have ensured their wish would no longer be as powerful. Rather like trying to tune into a particular radio station with weak batteries.
Any messages that mediums may or may not be able to pass on are either from mind reading or picking up static energies (ie the kind you get in some castles or churches for example).
Obviously I have no 'proof' per se but equally I am not the first person to believe this. Even clever bods like Wells and Conan Doyle I gather had similar views... not forgetting rafts of spiritual teachers over the years of course.
So, you had a dream?
I had this dream once, (per night), that me and Jessica Alba were doing the business. While sure, I can appreciate someone wanting a dream to be more than a dream, trying to see anything real in it is worthless.
One thing I have never really understood about 'ghosts' is that they're always dressed in Victorian clothing or nightgowns. Why doesn't anyone ever see any ghosts in Levis jeans and Nike trainers?
Given that there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest the existence of a 'soul' it's not really a 'theory', it's an assumption, a baseless idea - nothing more. 'Theory' does not mean: any old nonsense we can think of.
Making an appeal to famous people and 'clever bods' is a waste of time and has no value to anything.
I had this dream once, (per night), that me and Jessica Alba were doing the business. While sure, I can appreciate someone wanting a dream to be more than a dream, trying to see anything real in it is worthless.
One thing I have never really understood about 'ghosts' is that they're always dressed in Victorian clothing or nightgowns. Why doesn't anyone ever see any ghosts in Levis jeans and Nike trainers?
Given that there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest the existence of a 'soul' it's not really a 'theory', it's an assumption, a baseless idea - nothing more. 'Theory' does not mean: any old nonsense we can think of.
Making an appeal to famous people and 'clever bods' is a waste of time and has no value to anything.
1.if that is how you choose to interpret it.
2.presumably this is where your focus mostly is...
3.some people have 'seen' ghosts in modern clothes (as have I)
4.do check out the definition of 'theory' before making this point
5.these particular people were noted for their interest in matters paranormal so hardly irrelevant
I have a question: why are all your points so 'emotive' rather than scientific? Even the Big Bang is an 'assumption'.
Why the need to talk of 'nonsense', 'waste of time', 'baseless' and the level of your dreams?
That type of comment makes conversation - online or otherwise - rather tiresome and to be avoided.
KR
Euphrosene