Climate-gate

I'm trying to figure who comprises the 3% of climate scientists [?] that don't agree with the literature? Maybe 'climate scientist' is a pretty loose term. Maybe they're the Koch brothers personal climate scientists? Or the oil industry climate scientists?

It is getting difficult for even the Koch brothers personal climate scientist to pretend global warming isn't real....

Kochs boy

From the article:

The study of the world's surface temperatures by Richard Muller was partially bankrolled by a foundation connected to global warming deniers. He pursued long-held skeptic theories in analyzing the data.

Yet he found that the land is 1.6 degrees warmer than in the 1950s....match those by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and NASA.

He said he went even further back, studying readings from Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. His ultimate finding of a warming world, to be presented at a conference Monday, is no different from what mainstream climate scientists have been saying for decades.

One-quarter of the $600,000 to do the research came from the Charles Koch Foundation, whose founder is a major funder of skeptic groups and the tea party.

That is pretty funny that the Koch brothers inadvertently funded research to confirm global warming. They did not anticpate the integrity of the scientist.:D
 
It is getting difficult for even the Koch brothers personal climate scientist to pretend global warming isn't real....

Kochs boy

From the article:



That is pretty funny that the Koch brothers inadvertently funded research to confirm global warming. They did not anticpate the integrity of the scientist.:D

What's scary is these two 'booger eating billionaires' can buy that kind of influence. When we [us old wiseguys] were young the general consensus was this is the greatest nation on earth. I remember when I was learning about the Roman Empire and being worried that our country could follow the same path. It's the wealthiest. To bad the Koch brothers have all the money.
 
Fourier discovered the greenhouse effect
Sorry but you are wrong.

Heat in the state of light finds less resistance in penetrating the air, than in repassing into the air when converted into non-luminous heat.
Joseph Fourier, 1824. (p. 13)

CO2 absorbs heat
Sorry but you are wrong.
Up to a tension of 3- inches the absorption by carbonic oxide is proportional to the density of the gas.
John Tyndall, 1861. (p.274)

CO2 exists in trace amounts, so it can vary by 100% or more
Sorry but you are wrong.
an almost inappreciable admixture of any of the hydrocarbon vapors would produce great effects on the terrestrial [infrared] rays and
corresponding changes of climate

John Tyndall, 1861. (p. 277)

a doubling of atmospheric CO2 would raise surface temps by at least several degrees.
Sorry but you are wrong.
A simple calculation shows that the temperature in the arctic regions would rise about 8° to 9°C., if the carbonic acid increased to 2.5 or 3 times its present value.
Svante Arrhenius, 1896. (p.268)


What I pointed out are facts.
As you see the facts live in the evidence of nature, given to you to digest at your leisure by the thorough fact-checking of the people above and the thousands that have taken it upon themselves to check and re-check those facts. Your "pointing out facts" collapses under weight of all of that actual work which produced all of that actual fact-checking.

You just can't deal with it.
Deal with even the most elementary fact of science in any of the authoritative works from the 19th c above and get back with me once you're at the proficiency of, say, the year 1900.

'Science' is constantly reversing/altering itself, changing what 'reality' is etc.
As you will see by reading the above papers, the information produced by the IPCC in the 21st century is consistent with the discoveries in the 19th century. We have gone nearly 200 years without a reversal of those findings. Or maybe You just can't deal with it.

Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE HUMAN BEINGS WHO ARE JUST THAT, human beings; not supermen...
The people above were certainly superior to you in their ability to fact-check the causes of receding glaciers. I suppose you might feel the need to ridicule them as supermen, but really, these were just intelligent people who were determined to get answers. And they got the job done. Does that make them worthy of petty resentment?

just blind animals
Learn how to separate carbon dioxide from the air. Place it in a tube. Measure its capacity to absorb heat. When you learn to do that, you will have promoted yourself to the status of a blind animal.

trying to make sense of their environment
Read the first few paragraphs of the papers above. They each tell you they were searching for an explanation for the source of heat that brought us out of the last glacial peak.

and that with extremely limited means...
Can you separate carbon dioxide from air, place it in a tube and measure it's heat absorption? They could. Evidently their means far exceeded the extreme limitations you have imposed on yourself by never taking a chemistry lab. That pretty well disqualifies you from assessing their "extreme limitations".

extremely limited, got that?
Yes, you are. I got that. But not them. Go measure the heat absorption of carbon dioxide and come back and tell me what lack of tools is preventing your success. I mean other than your ignorance of chemistry.

--especially given the immensity of that same environment wherein they find themselves.
At present you are stumped by a tube of only a few cubic centimeters. They have sensors all over the planet, in vessels and bouys, up on the mountaintops, in high altitude aircraft, balloons and satellites, and in collections of ice and sediment cores thousands of meters deep. They have thousands of campuses, libraries, labs, research stations and and army of trained professionals working the actual problems on a daily basis. It's an immense technical challenge met by a colossal human effort. What have you got? A pickup with a gun rack and AM radio with the dial stuck on Rush Limbaugh, where you missed that day you meant to spit that plug of chew into the ashtray?

WHOLLY INCAPABLE of attaining to an accurate understanding of same.
Said the guy who has no idea how to measure a tube filled with carbon dioxide.

What might help would be a healthy dose of HUMILITY...
Oh, the irony.

but see?...it is patently obvious you people here are totally devoid of even a modicum of said virtue..
You don't see me attacking my intellectual superiors. And the other folks posting here, some of whom are qualified take charge of a project involving chemical analysis of air samples, they aren't bitching about Fourier, Tyndall or Arrhenius being -- what did you call them? -- Oh yeah, blind animals.

If you really believed humility was a virtue you would go look in the mirror, slap yourself a few times for being a dope, and go enroll in a remedial class in chemistry. Either that or just accept that you're a science illiterate and be glad that there a millions of people out there who aren't in the sad shape you're in, since they bothered to suffer through the lectures, labs, papers and exams. Be glad that they're taking care of business for you since you obviously can't handle even a test tube of it yourself.


The theft and use of the emails does reveal something interesting about the social context. It's a symptom of something entirely new in the history of science: Aside from crackpots who complain that a conspiracy is suppressing their personal discoveries, we've never before seen a set of people accuse an entire community of scientists of deliberate deception and other professional malfeasance. Even the tobacco companies never tried to slander legitimate cancer researchers. In blogs, talk radio and other new media, we are told that the warnings about future global warming issued by the national science academies, scientific societies, and governments of all the leading nations are not only mistaken, but based on a hoax, indeed a conspiracy that must involve thousands of respected researchers. Extraordinary and, frankly, weird.

Science historian reacts to hacked climate e-mails
 
Heat in the state of light finds less resistance in penetrating the air, than in repassing into the air when converted into non-luminous heat.
Joseph Fourier, 1824. (p. 13)


Up to a tension of 3- inches the absorption by carbonic oxide is proportional to the density of the gas.
John Tyndall, 1861. (p.274)


an almost inappreciable admixture of any of the hydrocarbon vapors would produce great effects on the terrestrial [infrared] rays and
corresponding changes of climate

John Tyndall, 1861. (p. 277)


A simple calculation shows that the temperature in the arctic regions would rise about 8° to 9°C., if the carbonic acid increased to 2.5 or 3 times its present value.
Svante Arrhenius, 1896. (p.268)



As you see the facts live in the evidence of nature, given to you to digest at your leisure by the thorough fact-checking of the people above and the thousands that have taken it upon themselves to check and re-check those facts. Your "pointing out facts" collapses under weight of all of that actual work which produced all of that actual fact-checking.


Deal with even the most elementary fact of science in any of the authoritative works from the 19th c above and get back with me once you're at the proficiency of, say, the year 1900.


As you will see by reading the above papers, the information produced by the IPCC in the 21st century is consistent with the discoveries in the 19th century. We have gone nearly 200 years without a reversal of those findings. Or maybe You just can't deal with it.


The people above were certainly superior to you in their ability to fact-check the causes of receding glaciers. I suppose you might feel the need to ridicule them as supermen, but really, these were just intelligent people who were determined to get answers. And they got the job done. Does that make them worthy of petty resentment?


Learn how to separate carbon dioxide from the air. Place it in a tube. Measure its capacity to absorb heat. When you learn to do that, you will have promoted yourself to the status of a blind animal.


Read the first few paragraphs of the papers above. They each tell you they were searching for an explanation for the source of heat that brought us out of the last glacial peak.


Can you separate carbon dioxide from air, place it in a tube and measure it's heat absorption? They could. Evidently their means far exceeded the extreme limitations you have imposed on yourself by never taking a chemistry lab. That pretty well disqualifies you from assessing their "extreme limitations".


Yes, you are. I got that. But not them. Go measure the heat absorption of carbon dioxide and come back and tell me what lack of tools is preventing your success. I mean other than your ignorance of chemistry.


At present you are stumped by a tube of only a few cubic centimeters. They have sensors all over the planet, in vessels and bouys, up on the mountaintops, in high altitude aircraft, balloons and satellites, and in collections of ice and sediment cores thousands of meters deep. They have thousands of campuses, libraries, labs, research stations and and army of trained professionals working the actual problems on a daily basis. It's an immense technical challenge met by a colossal human effort. What have you got? A pickup with a gun rack and AM radio with the dial stuck on Rush Limbaugh, where you missed that day you meant to spit that plug of chew into the ashtray?


Said the guy who has no idea how to measure a tube filled with carbon dioxide.


Oh, the irony.


You don't see me attacking my intellectual superiors. And the other folks posting here, some of whom are qualified take charge of a project involving chemical analysis of air samples, they aren't bitching about Fourier, Tyndall or Arrhenius being -- what did you call them? -- Oh yeah, blind animals.

If you really believed humility was a virtue you would go look in the mirror, slap yourself a few times for being a dope, and go enroll in a remedial class in chemistry. Either that or just accept that you're a science illiterate and be glad that there a millions of people out there who aren't in the sad shape you're in, since they bothered to suffer through the lectures, labs, papers and exams. Be glad that they're taking care of business for you since you obviously can't handle even a test tube of it yourself.


The theft and use of the emails does reveal something interesting about the social context. It's a symptom of something entirely new in the history of science: Aside from crackpots who complain that a conspiracy is suppressing their personal discoveries, we've never before seen a set of people accuse an entire community of scientists of deliberate deception and other professional malfeasance. Even the tobacco companies never tried to slander legitimate cancer researchers. In blogs, talk radio and other new media, we are told that the warnings about future global warming issued by the national science academies, scientific societies, and governments of all the leading nations are not only mistaken, but based on a hoax, indeed a conspiracy that must involve thousands of respected researchers. Extraordinary and, frankly, weird.

Science historian reacts to hacked climate e-mails

The literature you linked is a treatise on the scientific method. I'm getting excited reading about the adjustments Tyndall is making to improve his measuring device [galvanometer]. Really. Folks who are confused by all the 'is it a hoax hoopla" should read the papers Id linked. All of us are included in 'the group' [every thing on the planet] that can benefit from the work done by scientists. That is one [of many] basic reason for doing the work. The archive for this collection of knowledge is the Scientific literature. Id linked some very important scientific literature.
 
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Heat in the state of light finds less resistance in penetrating the air, than in repassing into the air when converted into non-luminous heat.
Joseph Fourier, 1824. (p. 13)


Up to a tension of 3- inches the absorption by carbonic oxide is proportional to the density of the gas.
John Tyndall, 1861. (p.274)


an almost inappreciable admixture of any of the hydrocarbon vapors would produce great effects on the terrestrial [infrared] rays and
corresponding changes of climate

John Tyndall, 1861. (p. 277)


A simple calculation shows that the temperature in the arctic regions would rise about 8° to 9°C., if the carbonic acid increased to 2.5 or 3 times its present value.
Svante Arrhenius, 1896. (p.268)

As we've discussed before, these are among the reasons I have difficulty attributing any credibility to anyone who describes the hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change as a modern hoax. It's like an instant "I don't actually know what I'm talking about and have done all my research on blogs, radio and TV" flag.

I think the saddest thing I have seen though is one opponent of the hypothesis insist that these guys were in on it and then proceed to argue that these guys were probably members of the illuminati putting into motion a long term plan.
 
photizo said:
Since Photizo has given up engaging in discussion or attempting argument etc (wisely, imho) people may dismiss all his links as more youtube for ignoramuses - that one is different.

I don't know what it's doing here in this thread

(My suspicion is that our poster here thinks not only that all this AGW stuff is a product of scientific certainty, but also that the essay he links somehow implies that the more certain scientists are the more likely they are to be wrong)

but it's a nice read.
 
Oh Hi folks. I only now noticed I had some replies here.


The literature you linked is a treatise on the scientific method. I'm getting excited reading about the adjustments Tyndall is making to improve his measuring device [galvanometer]. Really. Folks who are confused by all the 'is it a hoax hoopla" should read the papers Id linked. All of us are included in 'the group' [every thing on the planet] that can benefit from the work done by scientists. That is one [of many] basic reason for doing the work. The archive for this collection of knowledge is the Scientific literature. Id linked some very important scientific literature.

It's really a testament to the stupidity of attacking science. In the first place, the morons have no idea what they are attacking since they can't understand it. In the second place the people who made the initial discoveries were hamstrung by lack of adequate instruments as you note. They had to go off and invent devices that could help them measure things like irradiance and heat absoption. They were not only brilliant, but also resourceful and tenacious. They were able to reason out how such devices might be constructed, they made them work, and they gave us our first data on global warming. To attack that is about as stupid as it gets. In fact if there were one tax that would cure our ills, it's a stupidity tax. Pay as you go kind of thing. Talk about Come to Jesus. That would light a fire under their lard-asses. For crying out loud, people, get an 8th grade education. And stay away from the polls. ID card-checks for immigrants? Hell, just don't let them vote if they can't sign their own names.

Today we have 1000x better technology than Tyndall and Arrhenius, yet only now do you hear all the squawking. I suspect that even the starched-collar Victorian Bible Thumpers of Tyndall's day would shrink in horror at the glib wallowing in ignorance of modern fundamentalists. They might even take our lead instigator here out to the woodshed for an exorcism :p


Trippy said:
As we've discussed before, these are among the reasons I have difficulty attributing any credibility to anyone who describes the hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change as a modern hoax. It's like an instant "I don't actually know what I'm talking about and have done all my research on blogs, radio and TV" flag.
In the first place, any reasonable person would ask "how do they know". Absence of that is one pretty clear dead give-away that all of these folks arrived at this through their local religious and right-wing "news" outlets.

I think the saddest thing I have seen though is one opponent of the hypothesis insist that these guys were in on it and then proceed to argue that these guys were probably members of the illuminati putting into motion a long term plan.

Maybe they're planning to stockpile the oil for themselves, after it's made illegal. Probably it's needed to resupply the oil bunkers of hell since the world keeps not ending and the reserves down there are probably getting low. :mufc: . . .I see there are long lulls in this thread. A few folks were pretty hot to trot for a while, when Faux News was griping about it. If I'm not mistaken we were in the mid-term elections in the US when the thread got active a few months ago. Of course we'll never hear the end of this. They'll just keep moving from one brick wall to another, only to land back on this issue when they get tired of attacking abortion and blaming Obama for their own stupidity. I think the strategy is to keep chipping away, like termites. Or maybe the soil erosion that comes after the weevils and termites flatten the whole forest. That seems to be the grand scheme. To get this done some day before the End of Times.

Photizo said:

I see the cat's got your tongue again. I'll take that as an acknowledgment that you did not follow a single thing I posted to you back in Jan. No surprise there.

You're posting in the science & society thread, but so far all you are showing is the same rant by the same kind of irrelevant clueless people.


It's pretty clear you have no working knowledge of basics, to even be able to interpret the 19th c. papers I looked up for you back in January. What's missing from all of your posts is science. Too bad; your loss. I guess that just goes to show that you and the club you represent will continue to remain irrelevant to anything that actually matters.

No. nothing changes. Climate Science is still our best guide, and all your reasons for rejecting it are worthless to anything that even mildly looks like the pursuit of truth. Of course we all knew that going in, didn't we.


Let me know if you ever bother to read any of the material I showed you.
:shrug:
 
Let me know if you ever bother to read any of the material I showed you.
:shrug:

Therein lies the problem. Just like other conspiracy theorists, they won't read anything that contains real evidence or data - they're only interested in crank sites and other naysayers like themselves.
 
Therein lies the problem. Just like other conspiracy theorists, they won't read anything that contains real evidence or data - they're only interested in crank sites and other naysayers like themselves.

I actually would be very interested to know if there is even one living person on Earth who doubts or disparages climate science without already being poisoned by fundamentalists/Tea Baggers and their media outlets.
 
I actually would be very interested to know if there is even one living person on Earth who doubts or disparages climate science without already being poisoned by fundamentalists/Tea Baggers and their media outlets.

I'm sure there are plenty of natural nuts in the world - but they're vastly outnumbered by the 'indoctrinated' crowd.
 
I'm sure there are plenty of natural nuts in the world - but they're vastly outnumbered by the 'indoctrinated' crowd.

Could be. It just seems odd that anyone would have ever dreamed this up if not for fundie politics. As far as I can tell nothing of the kind is found between Fourier's kick-off paper (the Greenhouse effect) until . . . when, I'm not sure. As late as the Gore candidacy?

Trippy said:
HAARP? Chemtrails?

So now not only is anthropogenic climate change real, it's a conspiracy??

O.O

Heh heh. As if wanton carbon pollution isn't rife with every kind of conspiracy, from profiteering to advertising Earth as God's playground for his minions to destroy as it pleases them. BTW except for that brief period when Photizo was about to actually engage us in dialogue it looks like he prefers drive-bys. I guess his purpose is to remind us that the Right Wing is still wallowing in the mire.
 
Let me show you how the global warming magic trick works. Solid scientific data does indeed show the earth has warmed somewhat over the past 100 years. Based on this hard data, I agree there is net global warming over the past century. Based on other hard data, warming and cooling of the earth has occurred before with all this data shown this is a natural part of the earth. Natural global warming has occurred many times in the past, such as the warming up from the last ice age. This is also true and based on hard data.

Manmade global warming is different from the above, in that there is no precedent for manmade global warming in the history of the earth. There is no hard data based on historical precedent, nor is there any proof this is even possible of man to control global weather. The trick involves combining the science based heating of the earth, with postulated manmade events, which have no precedent and no hard data. At the same time, the trick involves conveniently ignoring the naturals cycles of the earth that have plenty of proof. If I say the earth is doing this, naturally, based on many examples of historical precedent, I will not be taken seriously. But manmade, which has no precedent, is sales pitched as a done deal. This is not real science based on weight of hard proof.

I used to be a development engineer. One of the rules of thumb is, if you make a claim that has never occurred before (new state of the art or something that is unprecedented), and you have the funding and the means, you need to back this up with direct data. Manmade global warming has plenty of funding, so there is no excuse not to run such experiments. If it was a poor science then we could cut them more slack, but that is not the case.

If I claim I can build an auto engine that can get 100 mpg, I can't just show pictures of an imaginary engine, or show pictures of other fancy cars driving on the highway, and call that my proof. Everyone would expect to see direct experiment data of a controlled experiment, and not just pictures of natural events that will happen periodically, even without manmade claims.

The way the trick works is the slight earth heating is real, but beyond that, the claims of manmade is all sales pitch with no precedent in history and no large scale pilot data to address the rational critics. Computer simulation with game engines does not count, since I can make a game engine with 1000 mpg engines that burns apples and oranges. This may not work in reality.

I would like to see the manmade global warming experts show us the pilot plant data where they control the weather with nothing but carbon since that is the main taboo claim. I can show you hard data where nature heated the entire earth from the last ice age to the present. The manmade data should be that strong or even stronger to be able to rule out natural.

I firmly believe if manmade had the hard data, everyone would be on board. I challenge the sales team to show us any hard data of a controlled experiment using only forms of carbon to manipulate the weather.

I am not denying global warming of a little over the past century. I deny the manmade magic trick is real until I see the pilot data that shows manmade is not an illusion that tries to overlap natural data and claim that as manmade.
 
wellwisher said:
Let me show you how the global warming magic trick works.
That's not what you need to show.

What you need to show is, first, how something - anything, volcano or rock weathering or whatever - can boost the carbon dioxide concentration of the planet's atmosphere without having the extra greenhouse gas trap more heat energy in the lower atmosphere.

Then you have to show how that mechanism you have discovered is operating now, and preventing the extra carbon dioxide that has been accumulating in the atmosphere recently from trapping more heat as one would normally expect it to.

Then you can go looking for the other causes of the current heat accumulation in the lower atmosphere, whatever you think they might be, and show how they account for it without the influence of carbon dioxide.

Until then, the obvious and well-documented operating mechanism that explains the obvious and well-documented trends in measurement and physical circumstance will continue to be persuasive.
 
Manmade global warming is different from the above, in that there is no precedent for manmade global warming in the history of the earth.
There was no precedent just like there was no precedent that man could go to the moon or an earthquake and tsunami could damage a nuclear reactor facility and there was no precedent for a Persian king to invade Greece. This "no precedent" fallacy is a regression of special pleading because everything that happens in history has some elements of historical precedent and some novel features. By focusing only on novel features, one is left with a collection of unconnected events and no way to draw general conclusions. Thus one is wholly unable to apply those generalizations that do work which is the application of science.

There is no hard data based on historical precedent, nor is there any proof this is even possible of man to control global weather.
There is no demonstration that any one man can control the weather. Indeed, control is not the issue here since no one has a motive for causing the climate changes as a primary effect. But coordinated action by a large number of industrialized men can have a significant weather impact as an unintentional consequence.
Example: Human emit 26 gigatonnes of CO2 per year while CO2 in the atmosphere is rising by only 15 gigatonnes per year. So humans are changing the atmosphere despite the action of Nature to dump atmospheric CO2 into plant growth and ocean acidity. And empirical data shows that this worldwide 50% rise in CO2 concentration over the past 150 years is exactly the main culprit for the climate changes you find. http://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming-intermediate.htm

Example: 2001-09-11 when the shutdown of air travel resulted in increased insolation. Historical records indicate that the same effect was seen in the neighborhoods of airbases in WWII.
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0442(2004)017<1123:RVIUDT>2.0.CO;2
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/joc.2392/abstract
 
Quote Originally Posted by Read-Only View Post

I'm sure there are plenty of natural nuts in the world - but they're vastly outnumbered by the 'indoctrinated' crowd.

If the choice is between the "plenty of natural nuts" and "indoctrinated crowd" who have followed the world wide debate on man's impact on the environment, you would take the side of the nuts? The historical argument of so labeled "nuts who were ahead of their time", does not hold here. The nuts here have no new approach other than "god will provide", which translated in to scientific language means "nature will respond", probably in a very unpleasant way, as symptoms seem to indicate has already started.
 
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